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	<title>Comments on: Forget Bad Banks, Why Not New Banks?</title>
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	<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 21:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kevin O'Rourke</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1085</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin O'Rourke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1085</guid>
		<description>The main opposition party has now taken up the idea:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0210/breaking23.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main opposition party has now taken up the idea:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0210/breaking23.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0210/breaking23.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1077</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1077</guid>
		<description>Gents,

you will be glad to know that I have already spotted the above and I am currently applying for a banking license. I think depositors will be tempted through sheer annoyance with the current set up. watch this space</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gents,</p>
<p>you will be glad to know that I have already spotted the above and I am currently applying for a banking license. I think depositors will be tempted through sheer annoyance with the current set up. watch this space</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin O'Rourke</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1053</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin O'Rourke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 10:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1053</guid>
		<description>According to today's Eurointelligence, for what it's worth:

European Commission sets out guidelines for bad banks

FT Deutschland has obtained a paper prepared by the Commission for today’s Economic and Finance Committee meeting in Brussels, which includes a detailed set of procedures European governments should be following in setting up bad banks. The Commission wants that toxic assets are written off at market value, and that any write-offs will first have to come out of shareholders’ capital. Once the capital falls below the Basel ceilings, it is up to the government to provide new capital, or to force the bank into bankruptcy procedures. All fine and good, but how about the small problem that there is no market for most of these assets, and thus no market price? The article says the Commission wants to leave that little detail to the bank supervisory authorities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to today&#8217;s Eurointelligence, for what it&#8217;s worth:</p>
<p>European Commission sets out guidelines for bad banks</p>
<p>FT Deutschland has obtained a paper prepared by the Commission for today’s Economic and Finance Committee meeting in Brussels, which includes a detailed set of procedures European governments should be following in setting up bad banks. The Commission wants that toxic assets are written off at market value, and that any write-offs will first have to come out of shareholders’ capital. Once the capital falls below the Basel ceilings, it is up to the government to provide new capital, or to force the bank into bankruptcy procedures. All fine and good, but how about the small problem that there is no market for most of these assets, and thus no market price? The article says the Commission wants to leave that little detail to the bank supervisory authorities.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1051</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 10:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1051</guid>
		<description>Agreed Patrick.  It's not a particularly controversial approach.  That said, for all its merits, it does not seem to be the route the Obama administration (or the Irish government) is going to go down.  At least not yet.

One of the problems with discussions on this issue is the confusion created by multiple possible meanings of "bad bank".  The good meaning (Patrick's meaning) relates to the best way to minimise taxpayer losses after nationalisation: Putting together a team of workout experts to get the best prices over time for the bad assets.  This is what the Resolution Trust Corporation -- apparently many people's model for the "bad bank" --- did with failed S&#38;Ls.

The bad "bad bank" proposal involves taking over one insolvent bank (for instance) and using it to go out and pay over the odds for other banks' toxic assets.  This is my interpretation of most of the casual references to bad banks lately and this just seems like a bad idea.  Insuring the losses on bad assets is just as bad --- the only difference being that governments will be paying out in a drip-drip fashion instead of straight off.

Beyond all of that, given the multi-faceted problems related to dealing with failing privately-owned banks, there still seems to me to be some merit in using at least some of the large amounts of money being used internationally for re-capitalizations ($350 billion is a lot of money) to set up some completely new banks (not just the "new WAMU" or "new B&#38;B"  banks associated with FDIC-style purchase and assumption procedures.)  But perhaps it's just not practical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed Patrick.  It&#8217;s not a particularly controversial approach.  That said, for all its merits, it does not seem to be the route the Obama administration (or the Irish government) is going to go down.  At least not yet.</p>
<p>One of the problems with discussions on this issue is the confusion created by multiple possible meanings of &#8220;bad bank&#8221;.  The good meaning (Patrick&#8217;s meaning) relates to the best way to minimise taxpayer losses after nationalisation: Putting together a team of workout experts to get the best prices over time for the bad assets.  This is what the Resolution Trust Corporation &#8212; apparently many people&#8217;s model for the &#8220;bad bank&#8221; &#8212; did with failed S&amp;Ls.</p>
<p>The bad &#8220;bad bank&#8221; proposal involves taking over one insolvent bank (for instance) and using it to go out and pay over the odds for other banks&#8217; toxic assets.  This is my interpretation of most of the casual references to bad banks lately and this just seems like a bad idea.  Insuring the losses on bad assets is just as bad &#8212; the only difference being that governments will be paying out in a drip-drip fashion instead of straight off.</p>
<p>Beyond all of that, given the multi-faceted problems related to dealing with failing privately-owned banks, there still seems to me to be some merit in using at least some of the large amounts of money being used internationally for re-capitalizations ($350 billion is a lot of money) to set up some completely new banks (not just the &#8220;new WAMU&#8221; or &#8220;new B&amp;B&#8221;  banks associated with FDIC-style purchase and assumption procedures.)  But perhaps it&#8217;s just not practical.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Honohan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1046</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Honohan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 09:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1046</guid>
		<description>Let's be clear.  There is absolutely nothing heterodox or controversial about the "new bank" proposal.  

It is in fact equivalent to the nationalization+bad bank proposal.  

Thus, obviously the new bank would acquire all or most of the branches and take on all or most of the staff (but not top management).  It benefits from an injection of government capital.  And it is to be sold back into the private sector as quickly as possible.  

So it is essentially identical to the solution adopted in WaMU and Bradford and Bingley as evoked in my paper for the crisis conference last month.

(One small but significant difference -- subordinated bondholders in those banks took a bath, whereas some of them have a government guarantee for the next 20 months).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s be clear.  There is absolutely nothing heterodox or controversial about the &#8220;new bank&#8221; proposal.  </p>
<p>It is in fact equivalent to the nationalization+bad bank proposal.  </p>
<p>Thus, obviously the new bank would acquire all or most of the branches and take on all or most of the staff (but not top management).  It benefits from an injection of government capital.  And it is to be sold back into the private sector as quickly as possible.  </p>
<p>So it is essentially identical to the solution adopted in WaMU and Bradford and Bingley as evoked in my paper for the crisis conference last month.</p>
<p>(One small but significant difference &#8212; subordinated bondholders in those banks took a bath, whereas some of them have a government guarantee for the next 20 months).</p>
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		<title>By: Antoin O Lachtnain</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1045</link>
		<dc:creator>Antoin O Lachtnain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 09:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1045</guid>
		<description>Here's another idea. 

The government gets involved in the property. It buys property that is likely to be of value to it for around half (or a third or whatever) the peak price. That will effectively allow cash to be returned to the banks, although not too much. It will also draw out any other land purchasers. Worst case scenario, the property would still not be worth a lot, but the government would actually own something and would avoid getting too deeply involved with the management of the banks. 

The next big issue is going to be commercial debt as the recession takes hold. It's a lot harder to quantify the value of commercial debt than it is property debt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s another idea. </p>
<p>The government gets involved in the property. It buys property that is likely to be of value to it for around half (or a third or whatever) the peak price. That will effectively allow cash to be returned to the banks, although not too much. It will also draw out any other land purchasers. Worst case scenario, the property would still not be worth a lot, but the government would actually own something and would avoid getting too deeply involved with the management of the banks. </p>
<p>The next big issue is going to be commercial debt as the recession takes hold. It&#8217;s a lot harder to quantify the value of commercial debt than it is property debt.</p>
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		<title>By: John McHale</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1040</link>
		<dc:creator>John McHale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 02:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1040</guid>
		<description>Karl, 

I have been following your prosposal and ensuing discussion with interest.   I was initially sceptical, but am starting to see the case for what you suggest -- even for Ireland.   

Can you let me know if I've got the key elements straight?

Good banks--
Assets: "Good" assets from the legacy banks, government bonds, and new loans over time
Liabilities: All guaranteed liabilities from the legacy banks
Ownership: Initially government, but private equity raised over time, with eventual full privatisation
Branch network: Network of the legacy banks
Not quite sure what happens to previous owners of legacy banks.  Some options: (i) wiped out completely; (ii) compensated based on remaining value of legacy bank; or (iii) given an ownership stake in the new bank

Bad banks--
Assets: Remaining "toxic" assets from the legacy banks
Liabilities: None
Ownership: Government
Challenge: Managing the asset portfolio to recoup value for the state.   (Niggling questions: Who would do the managment?  How much forbearance is optimal?  How much forbearance is likely given inevitable politicisation?)

A great advantage is that it provides more clarity on the commitment of the state, which I'm assuming would be very large.  Of course, there would still be uncertainty, including the ultimate value of the toxic portfolio.  A disadvantage is that this clarity is likely to come with some sticker shock. 

One final worry:  Will there be many willing creditworthy borrowers for the good banks to lend to in the immediate future?  Maybe we just need to be patient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, </p>
<p>I have been following your prosposal and ensuing discussion with interest.   I was initially sceptical, but am starting to see the case for what you suggest &#8212; even for Ireland.   </p>
<p>Can you let me know if I&#8217;ve got the key elements straight?</p>
<p>Good banks&#8211;<br />
Assets: &#8220;Good&#8221; assets from the legacy banks, government bonds, and new loans over time<br />
Liabilities: All guaranteed liabilities from the legacy banks<br />
Ownership: Initially government, but private equity raised over time, with eventual full privatisation<br />
Branch network: Network of the legacy banks<br />
Not quite sure what happens to previous owners of legacy banks.  Some options: (i) wiped out completely; (ii) compensated based on remaining value of legacy bank; or (iii) given an ownership stake in the new bank</p>
<p>Bad banks&#8211;<br />
Assets: Remaining &#8220;toxic&#8221; assets from the legacy banks<br />
Liabilities: None<br />
Ownership: Government<br />
Challenge: Managing the asset portfolio to recoup value for the state.   (Niggling questions: Who would do the managment?  How much forbearance is optimal?  How much forbearance is likely given inevitable politicisation?)</p>
<p>A great advantage is that it provides more clarity on the commitment of the state, which I&#8217;m assuming would be very large.  Of course, there would still be uncertainty, including the ultimate value of the toxic portfolio.  A disadvantage is that this clarity is likely to come with some sticker shock. </p>
<p>One final worry:  Will there be many willing creditworthy borrowers for the good banks to lend to in the immediate future?  Maybe we just need to be patient.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian J Goggin</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1036</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian J Goggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 23:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1036</guid>
		<description>@ Karl:
I understand that there may be some person, with a name similar to my own, employed in some branch of trade or commerce. I am happy to state that that person is not related to me in any way: nobody in my family has ever had any talent for making money.

On the other hand, we've never had the opportunity to lose quite such large amounts of it either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Karl:<br />
I understand that there may be some person, with a name similar to my own, employed in some branch of trade or commerce. I am happy to state that that person is not related to me in any way: nobody in my family has ever had any talent for making money.</p>
<p>On the other hand, we&#8217;ve never had the opportunity to lose quite such large amounts of it either.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin O'Rourke</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1031</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin O'Rourke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1031</guid>
		<description>That makes sense, and from my layman's perspective it seems preferable to use government money to set up banks that will work, than to use government money to prop up banks that are not working.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That makes sense, and from my layman&#8217;s perspective it seems preferable to use government money to set up banks that will work, than to use government money to prop up banks that are not working.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-1003</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-1003</guid>
		<description>I think the Buiter article linked to by, ahem, Brian J. Goggin .... has the answer to Kevin's question of  "Say we nationalise the banks today. And then sell off the good bits to foreign or domestic investors. Is this not essentially equivalent to the good bank proposal, and why would it not work?"  If "the good bits means all the deposits and other guaranteed liabilities but only the good assets, then these banks would be undercapitalized."

Buiter writes about his "new good banks":  "Under my new good banks proposal, the new good banks would take on the (guaranteed or insured) deposits of the legacy bad banks (which would lose their banking licenses) and would buy the good assets of the legacy banks.  Should deposits exceed good assets, the state would have to make up the difference initially with government debt on the balance sheet of the new good banks.  Should deposits be less than good assets, the new good banks would be able to borrow from the sovereign to finance the acquisition of the good assets from the legacy bad banks.  This would cleanse bank balance sheets and transform them into good banks but leave them undercapitalized. Soros suggests that $1 trillion of the estimated $1.5 trillion required to recapitalise the existing banking system should be directed to the cleansed banks.  Soros believes or hopes that some of the money required to capitalise the new, cleansed banks could come from the private sector.  Under my proposal, and that of Stiglitz, the state would initially capitalise the new banks on its own. "</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Buiter article linked to by, ahem, Brian J. Goggin &#8230;. has the answer to Kevin&#8217;s question of  &#8220;Say we nationalise the banks today. And then sell off the good bits to foreign or domestic investors. Is this not essentially equivalent to the good bank proposal, and why would it not work?&#8221;  If &#8220;the good bits means all the deposits and other guaranteed liabilities but only the good assets, then these banks would be undercapitalized.&#8221;</p>
<p>Buiter writes about his &#8220;new good banks&#8221;:  &#8220;Under my new good banks proposal, the new good banks would take on the (guaranteed or insured) deposits of the legacy bad banks (which would lose their banking licenses) and would buy the good assets of the legacy banks.  Should deposits exceed good assets, the state would have to make up the difference initially with government debt on the balance sheet of the new good banks.  Should deposits be less than good assets, the new good banks would be able to borrow from the sovereign to finance the acquisition of the good assets from the legacy bad banks.  This would cleanse bank balance sheets and transform them into good banks but leave them undercapitalized. Soros suggests that $1 trillion of the estimated $1.5 trillion required to recapitalise the existing banking system should be directed to the cleansed banks.  Soros believes or hopes that some of the money required to capitalise the new, cleansed banks could come from the private sector.  Under my proposal, and that of Stiglitz, the state would initially capitalise the new banks on its own. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian J Goggin</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-977</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian J Goggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-977</guid>
		<description>Sorry: I can't seem to insert links properly. Trying again:

http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/02/good-banknew-bank-vs-bad-bank-a-rare-example-of-a-no-brainer/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry: I can&#8217;t seem to insert links properly. Trying again:</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/02/good-banknew-bank-vs-bad-bank-a-rare-example-of-a-no-brainer/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/02/good-banknew-bank-vs-bad-bank-a-rare-example-of-a-no-brainer/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brian J Goggin</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-975</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian J Goggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-975</guid>
		<description>Willem Buiter has written again on the subject. His piece includes this:

"The US, the UK and several other continental European countries are at risk of emulating Ireland, where the government first guaranteed all the liabilities of the banks (other than equity) and only after that began to nationalise the banks.  This leaves the Irish government today in the not too enviable position of having to choose between sovereign default and bleeding the tax payer and the beneficiaries of normal public spending to make whole all the creditors of the banks."

&lt;a href="http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/02/good-banknew-bank-vs-bad-bank-a-rare-example-of-a-no-brainer/" rel="nofollow"&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Willem Buiter has written again on the subject. His piece includes this:</p>
<p>&#8220;The US, the UK and several other continental European countries are at risk of emulating Ireland, where the government first guaranteed all the liabilities of the banks (other than equity) and only after that began to nationalise the banks.  This leaves the Irish government today in the not too enviable position of having to choose between sovereign default and bleeding the tax payer and the beneficiaries of normal public spending to make whole all the creditors of the banks.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/02/good-banknew-bank-vs-bad-bank-a-rare-example-of-a-no-brainer/" rel="nofollow"></a></p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Honohan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-936</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Honohan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-936</guid>
		<description>The nationalization route is being actively discussed elsewhere.  It would "work".  Whether doing so now would be the most expedient for the taxpayer and for the economy at large at this moment is less clear. (Of course there are also other interests in play).

And there are other, more subtle, financial engineering solutions available (some of them discussed here already) which might give better protection against moral hazard and againt risk of short-termist political influence over lending decisions.  Some of these  are also being discussed elsewhere.

But Ireland is a bit exposed now to be innovating here.  That's why I have been suggesting a wait-and-see attitude, in anticipation of announcements from US, Germany and UK in the coming weeks.  We could more safely follow an established exemplar.

Any intervention now does limit our options. Saturday morning's newspaper articles suggest that what is currently on the table is generically the same as UK-type intervention of last October.  (But we assume this is a selective leak).  As such, it may be less limiting than some other options.  

But still...a little patience seems best, even if the banks are frustrated at their lack of financial independence, and even if allowing undercapitalized banks to operate entails some risks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The nationalization route is being actively discussed elsewhere.  It would &#8220;work&#8221;.  Whether doing so now would be the most expedient for the taxpayer and for the economy at large at this moment is less clear. (Of course there are also other interests in play).</p>
<p>And there are other, more subtle, financial engineering solutions available (some of them discussed here already) which might give better protection against moral hazard and againt risk of short-termist political influence over lending decisions.  Some of these  are also being discussed elsewhere.</p>
<p>But Ireland is a bit exposed now to be innovating here.  That&#8217;s why I have been suggesting a wait-and-see attitude, in anticipation of announcements from US, Germany and UK in the coming weeks.  We could more safely follow an established exemplar.</p>
<p>Any intervention now does limit our options. Saturday morning&#8217;s newspaper articles suggest that what is currently on the table is generically the same as UK-type intervention of last October.  (But we assume this is a selective leak).  As such, it may be less limiting than some other options.  </p>
<p>But still&#8230;a little patience seems best, even if the banks are frustrated at their lack of financial independence, and even if allowing undercapitalized banks to operate entails some risks.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin O'Rourke</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-928</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin O'Rourke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 13:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-928</guid>
		<description>Say we nationalise the banks today. And then sell off the good bits to foreign or domestic investors. Is this not essentially equivalent to the good bank proposal, and why would it not work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Say we nationalise the banks today. And then sell off the good bits to foreign or domestic investors. Is this not essentially equivalent to the good bank proposal, and why would it not work?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Lucey</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-921</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Lucey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 11:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-921</guid>
		<description>@James
I think the issue is "abruptly" : orderly winddown is one thing, collapse another. I think we saw that with Lehmans. 
@Karl 
Yes, the international element is key, your right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@James<br />
I think the issue is &#8220;abruptly&#8221; : orderly winddown is one thing, collapse another. I think we saw that with Lehmans.<br />
@Karl<br />
Yes, the international element is key, your right.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-905</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 22:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-905</guid>
		<description>"Letting banks, any bank, go bankrupt abruptly is not a good idea."

This being the case, what is the case for having a private banking system? I mean, I thought the market is supposed to be better than the state at providing goods/services because the inefficient go out of business. If we can never let banks go bust, then what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Letting banks, any bank, go bankrupt abruptly is not a good idea.&#8221;</p>
<p>This being the case, what is the case for having a private banking system? I mean, I thought the market is supposed to be better than the state at providing goods/services because the inefficient go out of business. If we can never let banks go bust, then what?</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-903</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-903</guid>
		<description>Just to clarify for Brian, my comments related to the general international discussion about how to deal with banking system problems (note the word "international" and the links to proposals relating to UK and US banking systems.)  Without doubt, the government's bank guarantee greatly complicates the current Irish situation.

That said, I still think these proposals provide some useful food for thought in the Irish case.  They help in clarifying that the issues of dealing with failed banks on the one hand, and getting new lending going, on the other hand, can (at least in theory) be separated.   For sure, with deposit (and other) guarantees in place, it is in all governments' best interests to deal with insolvent banks in the most orderly way possible and to get as much as possible in return for their assets.  But using taxpayers money to deliberately overpay for bad assets or fully recapitalize existing banks are not necessarily the only options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify for Brian, my comments related to the general international discussion about how to deal with banking system problems (note the word &#8220;international&#8221; and the links to proposals relating to UK and US banking systems.)  Without doubt, the government&#8217;s bank guarantee greatly complicates the current Irish situation.</p>
<p>That said, I still think these proposals provide some useful food for thought in the Irish case.  They help in clarifying that the issues of dealing with failed banks on the one hand, and getting new lending going, on the other hand, can (at least in theory) be separated.   For sure, with deposit (and other) guarantees in place, it is in all governments&#8217; best interests to deal with insolvent banks in the most orderly way possible and to get as much as possible in return for their assets.  But using taxpayers money to deliberately overpay for bad assets or fully recapitalize existing banks are not necessarily the only options.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Lucey</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-901</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Lucey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-901</guid>
		<description>@donal
"sume the deposit guarantee system takes care of the depositors" 
The problem with this is that the value of the deposits of AIB/BOI/Anglo is what, 300b? So the guarantee if it were called in would be worthless. Pretending otherwise is interesting but not realistic. And if one were to be called in then all would be. Once we gave the guarantee to them all they all became as strong only as the weakest link in the chain - which may not be Anglo. Is INBS stronger or weaker than Anglo?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@donal<br />
&#8220;sume the deposit guarantee system takes care of the depositors&#8221;<br />
The problem with this is that the value of the deposits of AIB/BOI/Anglo is what, 300b? So the guarantee if it were called in would be worthless. Pretending otherwise is interesting but not realistic. And if one were to be called in then all would be. Once we gave the guarantee to them all they all became as strong only as the weakest link in the chain - which may not be Anglo. Is INBS stronger or weaker than Anglo?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Lucey</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-900</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Lucey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-900</guid>
		<description>there is anotherset of  issues that Romer and Buiter and Karl  I think forget. a_ Lets say we start the Bank of Mani Puliti with 8b in government loans. Now, we need to get say 100b in deposits and loans from the markets. Despite what Karl thinks there is no guarantee that in that instance the now not to be capitalised banks will realise that they are zombies and fold their tent. At least it will take time for the system to realise that they are dead. People do not move their money rationally and so small deposits will take time to move. There will be no firesale of branches so it will have to be an online bank (and we already have Rabo, backed by the Dutch, so wheres the competitive advantage...). So the logistisc of attracting deposits shouldnt be underestimated
b) The interbank markets will not pull their money from the existing instantly and if they did we would have a disorderly collapse, which we are all agreed would be poor for the country. So, BMP will have to raise money on the interbank markets at , I suspect, a rate higher than the effective present rate of interest that AIBOI have to pay. After all, they are new, and are run by the Irish state, which has not got a great track record. Similarily, the deposit rate to entice people to bank with us as opposed to the Dutch would have to be higher. The overall effect is that the cost of funds from BMP will likely be higher than that from AIBOI in the short to medium term. this raises the cost of corporate funds, which depresses economic activity. This is not like the USA where the sovereign equity holder is less risky than the esisting equity holder. Au cointreau....
c) Private equity coming in to the irish banks would exacerbate this. PE would want, and deserve, 20% plus for the risk they are taking on.


Bottom line - setting up a replacement banking system is logistically a nightmare and there are significant second and third order effects especially in a small economy that need to be carefully thought out. We do not live in a model - we live in a society and a networked economy, and we need in our policy presctiptions and musings to remember this. Else there is a serious danger that the best will become the enemy of the good in relation to the rapidly accellerating mess we are in. Its best, imho, to fix the exisiting banks (and yes, have  a toxic bank) than to experiment with ideal world models. We are in a storm and redesigning the ship on the hoof is probably not a good idea - best to patch the holes and sail for calmer water</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there is anotherset of  issues that Romer and Buiter and Karl  I think forget. a_ Lets say we start the Bank of Mani Puliti with 8b in government loans. Now, we need to get say 100b in deposits and loans from the markets. Despite what Karl thinks there is no guarantee that in that instance the now not to be capitalised banks will realise that they are zombies and fold their tent. At least it will take time for the system to realise that they are dead. People do not move their money rationally and so small deposits will take time to move. There will be no firesale of branches so it will have to be an online bank (and we already have Rabo, backed by the Dutch, so wheres the competitive advantage&#8230;). So the logistisc of attracting deposits shouldnt be underestimated<br />
b) The interbank markets will not pull their money from the existing instantly and if they did we would have a disorderly collapse, which we are all agreed would be poor for the country. So, BMP will have to raise money on the interbank markets at , I suspect, a rate higher than the effective present rate of interest that AIBOI have to pay. After all, they are new, and are run by the Irish state, which has not got a great track record. Similarily, the deposit rate to entice people to bank with us as opposed to the Dutch would have to be higher. The overall effect is that the cost of funds from BMP will likely be higher than that from AIBOI in the short to medium term. this raises the cost of corporate funds, which depresses economic activity. This is not like the USA where the sovereign equity holder is less risky than the esisting equity holder. Au cointreau&#8230;.<br />
c) Private equity coming in to the irish banks would exacerbate this. PE would want, and deserve, 20% plus for the risk they are taking on.</p>
<p>Bottom line - setting up a replacement banking system is logistically a nightmare and there are significant second and third order effects especially in a small economy that need to be carefully thought out. We do not live in a model - we live in a society and a networked economy, and we need in our policy presctiptions and musings to remember this. Else there is a serious danger that the best will become the enemy of the good in relation to the rapidly accellerating mess we are in. Its best, imho, to fix the exisiting banks (and yes, have  a toxic bank) than to experiment with ideal world models. We are in a storm and redesigning the ship on the hoof is probably not a good idea - best to patch the holes and sail for calmer water</p>
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		<title>By: antoin</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-899</link>
		<dc:creator>antoin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-899</guid>
		<description>Devaluation is arguably just another means of taking money off people with savings. There is no easy solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Devaluation is arguably just another means of taking money off people with savings. There is no easy solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron McDaid</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-898</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron McDaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-898</guid>
		<description>Frank,
The point is that there is no panacea that'll keep everyone happy. Maybe our pensions will have to take a hit to save the broader economy and our government from defaulting. I'm probably oversimplifying; that isn't necessarily the choice we are facing.

But something somewhere has to give sooner or later. Perhaps we just have to hang tight until the EU decide to devalue the euro. "We'll vote Yes to Lisbon if you devalue the euro"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank,<br />
The point is that there is no panacea that&#8217;ll keep everyone happy. Maybe our pensions will have to take a hit to save the broader economy and our government from defaulting. I&#8217;m probably oversimplifying; that isn&#8217;t necessarily the choice we are facing.</p>
<p>But something somewhere has to give sooner or later. Perhaps we just have to hang tight until the EU decide to devalue the euro. &#8220;We&#8217;ll vote Yes to Lisbon if you devalue the euro&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-896</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-896</guid>
		<description>Furthermore, who owns most of the shares in Irish banks. Again, I would place a sizable bet that our pension funds are stuffed full of those too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Furthermore, who owns most of the shares in Irish banks. Again, I would place a sizable bet that our pension funds are stuffed full of those too!</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-895</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-895</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of careless talk about letting bondholders go bust, when the conversation turns to toxic banks. People might be surprised by how many of these bonds they actually own themselves.......in their pension funds!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of careless talk about letting bondholders go bust, when the conversation turns to toxic banks. People might be surprised by how many of these bonds they actually own themselves&#8230;&#8230;.in their pension funds!</p>
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		<title>By: Donal</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-894</link>
		<dc:creator>Donal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-894</guid>
		<description>Absent the Government guarantee, in the event Anglo was let go broke the   stockholders are wiped out and the creditors -- bondholders and depositors -- are left owning the bank.  Assume the deposit guarantee system takes care of the depositors, then the bondholders must settle for, say, 60 cents on the dollar with the receiver.   This bankruptcy would only create problems for other banks if they are seen to have same solvency issues.  If Anglo is seen to be an "outliner" in terms of asset quality, then they may be OK.  One option would be to give guarantee to systemically important banks -- AIB and BOI -- and let the others go broke and skin their bondholders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absent the Government guarantee, in the event Anglo was let go broke the   stockholders are wiped out and the creditors &#8212; bondholders and depositors &#8212; are left owning the bank.  Assume the deposit guarantee system takes care of the depositors, then the bondholders must settle for, say, 60 cents on the dollar with the receiver.   This bankruptcy would only create problems for other banks if they are seen to have same solvency issues.  If Anglo is seen to be an &#8220;outliner&#8221; in terms of asset quality, then they may be OK.  One option would be to give guarantee to systemically important banks &#8212; AIB and BOI &#8212; and let the others go broke and skin their bondholders.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Lucey</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-891</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Lucey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-891</guid>
		<description>@m
indeed . as I put it they had to throw something on the landmines of the banks toxic assets and they threw the economy.
 I have to say that I doubt very much that the government made the decsiion independently. They had to have advice and they made it on that advice. I assume that is what they mean - I cant see the two Brians and Mary deciding alone. But, maybe....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@m<br />
indeed . as I put it they had to throw something on the landmines of the banks toxic assets and they threw the economy.<br />
 I have to say that I doubt very much that the government made the decsiion independently. They had to have advice and they made it on that advice. I assume that is what they mean - I cant see the two Brians and Mary deciding alone. But, maybe&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: MLeFournier</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-889</link>
		<dc:creator>MLeFournier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 15:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-889</guid>
		<description>Once the State gave the guarantee, we lost the option of a "good bank" i.e. letting the bad banks sink, at least until October 2010.  My guess is that the guarantee will be extended before the end of this year because the banks won't be able to borrow if there is less than one year left in the guarantee.

As events unfold, it becomes clear that the guarantee was a stroke of genius by the banks. The Government thought they were throwing the banks a lifeline, in fact the guarantee has lashed the country's fortunes to the future of the banks.

Brian Cowen told Marian Finucane this morning that he sat in silence while the bankers made their case on that (in)famous night of 30 September.  He said the bankers then left the room and the Government made the decision independently.  The course of our economic history was changed on that night and we may never know the full story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once the State gave the guarantee, we lost the option of a &#8220;good bank&#8221; i.e. letting the bad banks sink, at least until October 2010.  My guess is that the guarantee will be extended before the end of this year because the banks won&#8217;t be able to borrow if there is less than one year left in the guarantee.</p>
<p>As events unfold, it becomes clear that the guarantee was a stroke of genius by the banks. The Government thought they were throwing the banks a lifeline, in fact the guarantee has lashed the country&#8217;s fortunes to the future of the banks.</p>
<p>Brian Cowen told Marian Finucane this morning that he sat in silence while the bankers made their case on that (in)famous night of 30 September.  He said the bankers then left the room and the Government made the decision independently.  The course of our economic history was changed on that night and we may never know the full story.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron McDaid</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-888</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron McDaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 13:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-888</guid>
		<description>Brian, Antoin,
I'm starting to see your points. Looking at Anglo's balance sheet (in the 2008 Preliminary results below), the deposits alone (Customer Accounts 51 billion) are more than the value of the loan book (72 billion or, in my opinion, 72 Million!). Hence, even if the bondholders were wiped out, the bank would still be a bankrupt wreck. 

The 'Debt Securities in Issue' (bonds?) are only 17b, less than the 22b reported by the Irish Times; I suspect the Irish Times article I linked to above was using out of date data from 2007 http://www.angloirishbank-interim-results.com/consolidatedbalance.asp

Here's the 2008 figures.
http://www.angloirishbank.com/Investors/Reports/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, Antoin,<br />
I&#8217;m starting to see your points. Looking at Anglo&#8217;s balance sheet (in the 2008 Preliminary results below), the deposits alone (Customer Accounts 51 billion) are more than the value of the loan book (72 billion or, in my opinion, 72 Million!). Hence, even if the bondholders were wiped out, the bank would still be a bankrupt wreck. </p>
<p>The &#8216;Debt Securities in Issue&#8217; (bonds?) are only 17b, less than the 22b reported by the Irish Times; I suspect the Irish Times article I linked to above was using out of date data from 2007 <a href="http://www.angloirishbank-interim-results.com/consolidatedbalance.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.angloirishbank-interim-results.com/consolidatedbalance.asp</a></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the 2008 figures.<br />
<a href="http://www.angloirishbank.com/Investors/Reports/" rel="nofollow">http://www.angloirishbank.com/Investors/Reports/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Lucey</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-887</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Lucey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 12:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-887</guid>
		<description>Letting banks, any bank, go bankrupt abruptly is not a good idea. A nanosecond later (or on market open) the other banks are sold to zero, the bond and institutional lenders demand repayment, the system siezes up and then the state is holding not a contingent liability but an actual liability of 400b. 
Apart from that, its a good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Letting banks, any bank, go bankrupt abruptly is not a good idea. A nanosecond later (or on market open) the other banks are sold to zero, the bond and institutional lenders demand repayment, the system siezes up and then the state is holding not a contingent liability but an actual liability of 400b.<br />
Apart from that, its a good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-886</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 12:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-886</guid>
		<description>I think we should not underestimate the informational capital existing banks have. Notably, in his study of the Great Depression, Bernanke stressed that bank failures exacerbated the informational asymmetries that plague credit markets.
Moreover, I'm wary of suggestions that government recapitalisation will induce flows of private capital into banks. To me, this makes little, if any, sense. If investors desire a diversified portfolio, then government investment would simply crowd out private investment. After all, since the public have a claim on the returns, government investment is de facto *their* investment too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we should not underestimate the informational capital existing banks have. Notably, in his study of the Great Depression, Bernanke stressed that bank failures exacerbated the informational asymmetries that plague credit markets.<br />
Moreover, I&#8217;m wary of suggestions that government recapitalisation will induce flows of private capital into banks. To me, this makes little, if any, sense. If investors desire a diversified portfolio, then government investment would simply crowd out private investment. After all, since the public have a claim on the returns, government investment is de facto *their* investment too.</p>
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		<title>By: karl deeter</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/02/06/forget-bad-banks-why-not-new-banks/#comment-885</link>
		<dc:creator>karl deeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 12:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=604#comment-885</guid>
		<description>on the idea of deposit v lending margins I wrote a plainspeak post on it


http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/blog/index.php/2009/02/06/understanding-deposit-lending-margin-relationships/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>on the idea of deposit v lending margins I wrote a plainspeak post on it</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/blog/index.php/2009/02/06/understanding-deposit-lending-margin-relationships/" rel="nofollow">http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/blog/index.php/2009/02/06/understanding-deposit-lending-margin-relationships/</a></p>
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