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	<title>Comments on: Implications of QNA Release for 2009</title>
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	<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/</link>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 02:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Irish Economy &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Unemployment Up to 11% in March</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3468</link>
		<dc:creator>The Irish Economy &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Unemployment Up to 11% in March</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 12:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] turnaround after the first quarter.  Working through the various scenarios along the lines of my post from last week, it&#8217;s very hard to see an average-over-average growth rate better than -8% [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] turnaround after the first quarter.  Working through the various scenarios along the lines of my post from last week, it&#8217;s very hard to see an average-over-average growth rate better than -8% [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John McHale</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3208</link>
		<dc:creator>John McHale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3208</guid>
		<description>It is revealing to examine a decomposition of the 7.5% fall in real GDP recorded in Table 3.  

Using GDP shares in 2007Q4 as weights, the contributions of the various components are:

Consumption = -2.0%
Government spending = 0.1%
Business/residential Investment = -7.3%
Inventory adjustment = -1.8%
Net Exports = 3.5%

Clearly, the collapse in business/residential investment is the dominant  contributor to the decline.  The minus 2 percentage point contribution from consumption also strikes me as large, with the contraction apparently gathering pace given what we know about retail sales.   The strong positive contribution from net exports is striking, as Alan Matthews had anticipated.  Finally, the large negative contribution from inventory investment is unlikely to continue as stocks are run down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is revealing to examine a decomposition of the 7.5% fall in real GDP recorded in Table 3.  </p>
<p>Using GDP shares in 2007Q4 as weights, the contributions of the various components are:</p>
<p>Consumption = -2.0%<br />
Government spending = 0.1%<br />
Business/residential Investment = -7.3%<br />
Inventory adjustment = -1.8%<br />
Net Exports = 3.5%</p>
<p>Clearly, the collapse in business/residential investment is the dominant  contributor to the decline.  The minus 2 percentage point contribution from consumption also strikes me as large, with the contraction apparently gathering pace given what we know about retail sales.   The strong positive contribution from net exports is striking, as Alan Matthews had anticipated.  Finally, the large negative contribution from inventory investment is unlikely to continue as stocks are run down.</p>
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		<title>By: Dreaded_Estate</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3194</link>
		<dc:creator>Dreaded_Estate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3194</guid>
		<description>@colm mccarthy 

A 15% fall in GDP would put is mid table on the largest GDP falls in the last 100 years.

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12852043

http://media.economist.com/images/20090103/CFN620.gif</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@colm mccarthy </p>
<p>A 15% fall in GDP would put is mid table on the largest GDP falls in the last 100 years.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12852043" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12852043</a></p>
<p><a href="http://media.economist.com/images/20090103/CFN620.gif" rel="nofollow">http://media.economist.com/images/20090103/CFN620.gif</a></p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Honohan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3163</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Honohan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3163</guid>
		<description>Took the time to examine this release now and among the things that jumped out at me was the degree to which consumer spending held up reasonably well even into the 4th quarter.  Indeed consumer spending was down less than 1 per cent in 2008 as a whole relative to 2007.  

The big fall on the expenditure side is in capital formation -- construction of course but not only that; a big fall-off in computer and transport machinery evident from the trade stats published today.  

Not much evidence here that cross-border shopping or consumer risk aversion were big drivers in the substantial fall in the domestic expenditure contribution to overall activity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Took the time to examine this release now and among the things that jumped out at me was the degree to which consumer spending held up reasonably well even into the 4th quarter.  Indeed consumer spending was down less than 1 per cent in 2008 as a whole relative to 2007.  </p>
<p>The big fall on the expenditure side is in capital formation &#8212; construction of course but not only that; a big fall-off in computer and transport machinery evident from the trade stats published today.  </p>
<p>Not much evidence here that cross-border shopping or consumer risk aversion were big drivers in the substantial fall in the domestic expenditure contribution to overall activity.</p>
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		<title>By: colm mccarthy</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3142</link>
		<dc:creator>colm mccarthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3142</guid>
		<description>Karl, whether those learned in the tax code deduct as imports or factor flows in getting to bottom-line GNP is the Sixth Sorrowful Mystery, and it does'nt matter. (Think expenditure table, not output or income, as does PH above). 

The important point that you keep making, correctly, is that this is a high-frequency macroeconomic correction - real GNP seems to be falling about 1% per month - and the yoy crowd are just lazy. The monthly and quarterly data are really important, and time aggregation is a big trap just now. 

Dreaded Estate wants to know the peak-to-trough decline. So de we all. To date (Table 4, expendture table sa) says about 7% to Q4 '08, but it's not over. My guess is (quarterly sa real GNP) that double figs is likely at this stage, low teens probable and mid-teens entirely possible. These words to be eaten in due course. 

Three papers have been published to my knowledge on the Irish quarterly national accounts, one on volatility (by me in ESRI QEC), one by me and John Lawlor on seasonality (also in ESRI QEC), both a few years back, and one recently by Patrick Quill of the CSO on revisions (also ESRI QEC). All are downloadable free from ESRI webiste. 

The main points made are, briefly and in order: (i) the Irish qtly numbers are very volatile by international standards, not CSO's fault, just the way it is, I think an important point. (ii) there are substantial seasonals, and you can argue the toss about whether CSO's sa adjustment (X-12 on the aggregate data) is the best - I think not, but a small point, and (iii) Quill thinks the scale/frequency of revisions are not out of line and I agree. 

If hacks continue to quote yoy % changes for monthly and qtly figs, that's their problem, but Karl is 100% right to insist on proper attention to the CSO's high-frequency numbers, the best we have and a huge improvement on where we were.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, whether those learned in the tax code deduct as imports or factor flows in getting to bottom-line GNP is the Sixth Sorrowful Mystery, and it does&#8217;nt matter. (Think expenditure table, not output or income, as does PH above). </p>
<p>The important point that you keep making, correctly, is that this is a high-frequency macroeconomic correction - real GNP seems to be falling about 1% per month - and the yoy crowd are just lazy. The monthly and quarterly data are really important, and time aggregation is a big trap just now. </p>
<p>Dreaded Estate wants to know the peak-to-trough decline. So de we all. To date (Table 4, expendture table sa) says about 7% to Q4 &#8216;08, but it&#8217;s not over. My guess is (quarterly sa real GNP) that double figs is likely at this stage, low teens probable and mid-teens entirely possible. These words to be eaten in due course. </p>
<p>Three papers have been published to my knowledge on the Irish quarterly national accounts, one on volatility (by me in ESRI QEC), one by me and John Lawlor on seasonality (also in ESRI QEC), both a few years back, and one recently by Patrick Quill of the CSO on revisions (also ESRI QEC). All are downloadable free from ESRI webiste. </p>
<p>The main points made are, briefly and in order: (i) the Irish qtly numbers are very volatile by international standards, not CSO&#8217;s fault, just the way it is, I think an important point. (ii) there are substantial seasonals, and you can argue the toss about whether CSO&#8217;s sa adjustment (X-12 on the aggregate data) is the best - I think not, but a small point, and (iii) Quill thinks the scale/frequency of revisions are not out of line and I agree. </p>
<p>If hacks continue to quote yoy % changes for monthly and qtly figs, that&#8217;s their problem, but Karl is 100% right to insist on proper attention to the CSO&#8217;s high-frequency numbers, the best we have and a huge improvement on where we were.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Honohan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3116</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Honohan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3116</guid>
		<description>Karl, Some MNCs choose to reward their "head offices" by paying them a fee for services rendered.  Obviously this does not appear as a factor flow in the SNA, but instead as an import of services.  Others just allow the profits to be higher and remit.  This does appear as a factor outflow.  From an economist's point of view there may be little difference in the underlying flows.  

Our low corporation tax rate would seem to favour the latter route.  Maybe others can explain the kinds of situation (tax or otherwise) that typically motivate the former route for some MNCs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, Some MNCs choose to reward their &#8220;head offices&#8221; by paying them a fee for services rendered.  Obviously this does not appear as a factor flow in the SNA, but instead as an import of services.  Others just allow the profits to be higher and remit.  This does appear as a factor outflow.  From an economist&#8217;s point of view there may be little difference in the underlying flows.  </p>
<p>Our low corporation tax rate would seem to favour the latter route.  Maybe others can explain the kinds of situation (tax or otherwise) that typically motivate the former route for some MNCs.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3115</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3115</guid>
		<description>Looks like I don't understand the royalty\factor income issue (something to do with some type of income flow counting in imports?) or how it affects GDP but it wouldn't be the first time I've learned something useful from this blog if someone came on and explained it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like I don&#8217;t understand the royalty\factor income issue (something to do with some type of income flow counting in imports?) or how it affects GDP but it wouldn&#8217;t be the first time I&#8217;ve learned something useful from this blog if someone came on and explained it.</p>
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		<title>By: Dreaded_Estate</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3095</link>
		<dc:creator>Dreaded_Estate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3095</guid>
		<description>What is the likely fall in Irish GDP/GNP from peak to trough?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the likely fall in Irish GDP/GNP from peak to trough?</p>
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		<title>By: colm mccarthy</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3087</link>
		<dc:creator>colm mccarthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3087</guid>
		<description>Ronnie, well spotted - the royalty item could as well be in factor income as in imports, and is one reason why qtly GNP is maybe a better guide than GDP. But your 'GNP figures were actually higher than in Q3' refers to the nsa table - sa, GNP fell 2.2% qoq in Q4. 

On carry-over, the sa fig for GDP is -5.0 and for GNP is -3.2. There is no chance of these figs being achieved, since a Q1 09 deterioration is pretty certain, as Karl argues. If GNP drops 3% in Q1 and stays there (a fairly rosy scenario?) the fy decline is 6.2%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronnie, well spotted - the royalty item could as well be in factor income as in imports, and is one reason why qtly GNP is maybe a better guide than GDP. But your &#8216;GNP figures were actually higher than in Q3&#8242; refers to the nsa table - sa, GNP fell 2.2% qoq in Q4. </p>
<p>On carry-over, the sa fig for GDP is -5.0 and for GNP is -3.2. There is no chance of these figs being achieved, since a Q1 09 deterioration is pretty certain, as Karl argues. If GNP drops 3% in Q1 and stays there (a fairly rosy scenario?) the fy decline is 6.2%.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3086</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3086</guid>
		<description>I'm been thinking about Ronnie's argument about income repatriation figures affecting GDP in Q4 and I'm not sure I agree with it.  GDP reflects the total amount of income generated from production in Ireland, irrespective of who receives the income.  Income repatriation flows---whether into and out of Ireland---can lead to GNP moving in a different fashion in any given quarter.  By that interpretation, there were some abnormal swings in net factor income from abroad in Q2 and Q3 and these were unwound in Q4, but the Q4 GDP figure is a correct reflection of production in Q4.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m been thinking about Ronnie&#8217;s argument about income repatriation figures affecting GDP in Q4 and I&#8217;m not sure I agree with it.  GDP reflects the total amount of income generated from production in Ireland, irrespective of who receives the income.  Income repatriation flows&#8212;whether into and out of Ireland&#8212;can lead to GNP moving in a different fashion in any given quarter.  By that interpretation, there were some abnormal swings in net factor income from abroad in Q2 and Q3 and these were unwound in Q4, but the Q4 GDP figure is a correct reflection of production in Q4.</p>
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		<title>By: John McHale</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3085</link>
		<dc:creator>John McHale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3085</guid>
		<description>One small optimistic note:  Looking at Table 6 in the National Accounts release, inventory investment fell sharply in the 2008Q4.   The change in stocks was +384 in 2007Q4 and -491 in 2008Q4.   Interestingly, the change was +608 in 2007Q3.   This suggests that businesses pulled back production sharply in the last quarter of the year and ran down stocks of finished goods.   There is some hope that this process was well-advanced by the end of the year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One small optimistic note:  Looking at Table 6 in the National Accounts release, inventory investment fell sharply in the 2008Q4.   The change in stocks was +384 in 2007Q4 and -491 in 2008Q4.   Interestingly, the change was +608 in 2007Q3.   This suggests that businesses pulled back production sharply in the last quarter of the year and ran down stocks of finished goods.   There is some hope that this process was well-advanced by the end of the year.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3078</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3078</guid>
		<description>Just to clarify.  Some of these calculations "extrapolate momentum" and are pessimistic.  Some don't and are more optimistic.  I'm not recommending one way or another.  All imply very large contraction figures on an annual-over-annual basis and all illustrate that this figure can be a somewhat distorted way to look at the pattern of growth occuring during the year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify.  Some of these calculations &#8220;extrapolate momentum&#8221; and are pessimistic.  Some don&#8217;t and are more optimistic.  I&#8217;m not recommending one way or another.  All imply very large contraction figures on an annual-over-annual basis and all illustrate that this figure can be a somewhat distorted way to look at the pattern of growth occuring during the year.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronnie O'Toole</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/03/26/implications-of-qna-release-for-2009/#comment-3077</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronnie O'Toole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=1300#comment-3077</guid>
		<description>The GDP figures today are affected by a very large increase in royalty imports (up €1.5 bn on Q3, and €1 on Q4 2007). These are not really imports, but are income repatriation by another name. Conversely, income repatriation was down sharply. As such, GDP figures look like they have fallen like a stone, while GNP figures were actually higher than in Q3. This type of distortion will always be important in the Irish data, and extrpolating momentum like Karl is suggesting doesn't seem wise. At least wait until the revised figures for 2008, which are likely to shake up the numbers again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The GDP figures today are affected by a very large increase in royalty imports (up €1.5 bn on Q3, and €1 on Q4 2007). These are not really imports, but are income repatriation by another name. Conversely, income repatriation was down sharply. As such, GDP figures look like they have fallen like a stone, while GNP figures were actually higher than in Q3. This type of distortion will always be important in the Irish data, and extrpolating momentum like Karl is suggesting doesn&#8217;t seem wise. At least wait until the revised figures for 2008, which are likely to shake up the numbers again.</p>
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