Comments on: The Spirit of Ireland

By: Donal Maguire

Donal Maguire — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:25:40 +0000

Pat,

Indeed. I’m guessing any different view is a waste of time.
I think Igor should post all three to clarify the matter.

Eoin

By: Mark Dowling

Mark Dowling — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:35:19 +0000

If Igor knows there are three, why doesn’t he post them himself? No objection I trust Richard?

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 09:39:51 +0000

Donal,
It is nice to know one’s worth to society, don’t you think. That is perhaps why I was asked to study wikipedia articles
Pat Gill

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 09:06:33 +0000

@Donal
Nothing to hide. Igor Shvets claims that I sent him three emails, but my server is adamant that there were only two. The first one is copied above. The second one briefly states that I think he is a waste of time.

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:22:02 +0000

No Richard I would be quite happy to see a sensible energy policy for Ireland. I and S of I are quite well aware of our limitations, but also aware of our facts. And yet again you seem to believe that S of I want to impose our views on anyone, we are asking the question, is it wise to be dependent on other nations for ALL of our energy, when we could have a measure of IN-dependency and the country could be in a better financial position.
It doesn’t even have to affect our current energy regime, it might even be decided to export all of our renewable energy. But the question will be asked.

Pat Gill

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:36:31 +0000

@Pat
It is news to me that renewables are subsidised because of intermittency. I am delighted to learn that SoI will not just fix our energy and economy, but the global capital market as well. Next step: World peace?

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:24:25 +0000

Richard I am not. You stated that the price of gas was fixed on the price of oil.
And the reason quoted globally for subsidies on renewables is the intermittent nature of same. The S of I proposal is designed to remove that aspect of all renewables and in fact would impact positively on the cost base of thermal plants as well. And the fact remains that renewables do not have a fuel cost, although they do like every other industry have a capital cost to use them, S of I have plans to curtail those capital costs also.

Pat Gill

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:07:57 +0000

@Pat
You are being disingenious. Costs include fixed and variable costs. Omitting one is just wrong. Wind energy is subsidised whereever it is used.

By: Donal Maguire

Donal Maguire — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:58:29 +0000

Richard,

I note that you still have not posted the email that you sent to Igor Shvets last April. Something to hide?

Donal

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:13:04 +0000

Take away the subsidies, they would not be required by a mature dispatchable industry, and my question was regarding the cost price of wind and wave energy, not the cost of the technology to use them, just as the cost price of coal is a different question to the cost of Moneypoint or any other generating plant.

Pat Gill

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:53:54 +0000

@Pat
The cost of wind and wave power is set at the capital market, and is also driven by government subsidies here and abroad. The price of capital is highly variable, and subsidies are volatile too.

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:54:52 +0000

And the price of the fuel used by wind or wave producers is set by ?

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:31:48 +0000

@Pat
The price of gas is set by the price of oil.

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:55:41 +0000

Richard you are obviously including a lot of office type busineses in your calculation, as the people I spoke to had quite different figures in their accounts, enough actually to finance moving to a different jurisdiction and transport finished goods back to Ireland
Does an economist take the effect of policy on a population into account.

*wind plus pumped hydro is at least twice as expensive as gas) at a fixed price (which it cannot, because the price of electricity would go up and down with the interest rate rather than with the price of oil)”. You therefore assert that the price of oil had no effect on energy prices over the past 18 months.

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 06:17:38 +0000

@Pat
There is this myth that the high cost of electricity hurts Ireland’s competitive position. The average energy costs (of which electricity is only a part) for businesses is 2% of total costs.

Of course, it would be good if SoI could deliver cheap electricity (which it cannot, as wind plus pumped hydro is at least twice as expensive as gas) at a fixed price (which it cannot, because the price of electricity would go up and down with the interest rate rather than with the price of oil).

By: Pat gill

Pat gill — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:39:46 +0000

Richard,
Last week, as I went about my S of I business, I spoke to the CEO’s of three large domestic employers, and all agreed that a known energy cost, not dependant on the price of oil and extending at least a decade in advance, would give them confidence in their ability to keep their operations in this country. Emboldened by this knowledge, I e-mailed the global HQ of a large multinational, recently departed our shores, with the question outlined above, could a low energy cost, extending for at least a decade, and not oil dependant, be a basis for their return to Ireland. I received a one word answer, Yes.
Could this aspect of renewable energy possibly inform a new national energy policy.

Pat Gill

By: pat gill

pat gill — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:15:37 +0000

Mark,
I could also provide links, where fossil plants have tripped, and unlike the wind, where reliable forecasts are available, when a large fossil plant trips off the grid, the effect is more profound. As I said, I could provide links, but I won’t because all renewable energy suffers from intermittency, and this goes to the core of the S of I proposal, making renewable energy a reliable, dependable, dispatchable, energy source. And it does this by introducing large scale cost effective electricity storage, thereby replacing the word intermittent with the word dependable.

Pat Gill

By: Mark Dowling

Mark Dowling — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:03:16 +0000

A letter in the Indo drew my attention to this.

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:07:25 +0000

Richard,
It seems the techno gremlins have been busy, it appears from an entry earlier in this thread that two different posts from P.ie were from one contributor, I correct the mistake thus,

…] Originally Posted by fiannafailure So until the parameters of the project are finalised I can only comment on or argue concepts and their practicalities, not specific financial projections. And every S of I presentation to date has been on that basis.

a different contributor said,

The video presentation to the IIEA clearly showed the potential sites that SOI had chosen. It also gave gave preliminary financial projections. In fact the link that you provided yesterday has a post from someone called James (who also signs off as Graham….) who seems to be very close to the project. He says: “I asked them what they expected the power price to be. They responded

Clarity is a virtue second only to knowledge my gran used to say.

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:29:18 +0000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Colbert

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:27:58 +0000

Richard,

I am genuinely interested in this subject, again as your time permits, perhaps you can expand on your view.

Pat Gill

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:23:13 +0000

@Pat
There is no inherent value in using domestic sources of energy only. That’s a theory known as Colbertism or Mercantilism. It was discredited in the 19th century by Ricardo and others.

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:41:24 +0000

Veronica, Brian, Richard in fact my question is to all viewers of this thread.
What if any would be the benefits of some measure of energy independence for Ireland.

Pat Gill

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:30:23 +0000

Veronica,
I suppose I asked for it, but now it is apparently,your turn to patronise me by saying that I would jump up and down all over you, I am I regret, a gentleman and as such would expect the jumping up and down to be done To me rather than the way you suggest, and so I remain alas jumpless and have to console myself with whatever excitement I can find, such as S of I, I hope that over the next few months, your fears and reservations may be put to bed for good.
And I agree we all a need a little colour in our cheeks from time to time.

Regards

Pat

By: Veronica

Veronica — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:01:02 +0000

@ Pat Gill

I was originally very taken with the concept of the Spirit of Ireland project and I have a personal interest in the Mount Callan Wind Farm project that is connected with it.

However, after reading the discussion on SoI on this website, and others where a similar discussion has been ongoing, plus the IIEA presentation, my original enthusiasm is tempered with serious reservations about some of the more grandiose claims that are being publicly made for this project and a PR strategy that seeks to promote it as some sort of popular ‘movement’ where any critical or contrary views will be portrayed as somehow going against the national interest. I have been here before, you see, and have some experience of where that sort of thinking ultimately leads - to failure.

I suspect that when it comes to the ESRI that what’s been going on has been a clash of expectations - that SoI perhaps did not fully comprehend how the ESRI works and its modus operandi. And SoI is not the kind of organisation that the ESRI would normally be approached by. I’m only surmising this, so please don’t jump up and down all over me! But if you have sufficient confidence in your own case what does it matter what any individual economist or anyone else thinks of it? Or says about it? In the fullness of time it will be judged on its merits.

My only interest in this subject has been in becoming better informed as to the viability or otherwise of the SoI project - on the facts, not any issues of personality. The only offence I take is about being cast as anybody’s ‘pal’, which I’m not. It’s very gracious of you, but not necessary, to apologise for patronising me. I’m long enough around to be more amused than irritated by anything that ’s thrown at my head (or my unfortunate ears) and life wouldn’t be much fun if there wasn’t a bit of colour in it now and again, would it?

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:37:14 +0000

That’s close enough to work with, enough room for personal interpretation. Perhaps Richard you are a bigger man than I gave you credit for at the start, as you find time, perhaps we can have that debate in a professional manner

Pat Gill crackpot

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:34:38 +0000

Crackpot Pat

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:12:01 +0000

@Pat
Until I find evidence of the contrary, I always work under the assumption that someone is of sterling character. Igor Shvets has not done anything to change my prior.

By: Pat Gill

Pat Gill — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:06:23 +0000

Richard a little more effort and we are there, your views on S of I are legitimate if in my opinion wrong, but taking a man’s character, even if by accident is not, and I know you would agree on that, so?

Pat

By: Richard Tol

Richard Tol — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:41:06 +0000

@Pat
I have no reason to believe that Igor Shvets is a liar in the sense that he seems to believe what he says.