I think John Sheehan is right that we need to consider fees issue across the third level system i.e including the IOTs. In fact the dualistic conception of the third level system leads I think to poor decisions and special pleading on all sides. There was a time when the dual system made a sort of sense in that IOTs could produced 2.5 level graduates that, in wages and education levels were internationally competitive. Wages level in Ireland are unlikely to go so low again, technological changes have wiped out much demand for such workers and the children of people educated in the IOTs in 1980s now aspire to degree level education and beyond. The IOTs have with varying success responded to those aspirations.

My guess is that some IOTs should become universities, more should close and merge, a limited number should refocus on the now smaller market for what they once did very well. Perhaps some will do a mixture of all of the above.

What is clear is that there needs to be some mechanism for sorting the wheat from the chaff across Irish higher education, and allowing a disciplined evolution. This mechanism needs to be free from political easy-targeting (witness the McCarthy’s report silence on most of more politically sensitive IOTs outside Dublin – the Tippeary Institute I think was the sole exception). What is need is some a mechanism with some autonomy as O’Brolchain put it above “with clear objectives, freedom of action and full accountability.”

Worthy of an article in itself and not just for the unis….. Regulation here is endless meddling, endlessly adding cost and complexity without actually achieving a whole lot. A whole lot of heat and very little light.

Despite all that we have the bank chairmen doing insider deals and dodgy loans engaging in activities which would result in fraud charges elsewhere…. Seemingly with impunity here…

The reaction… Calls for “more and better” regulation whereas a better reaction would be to tighten the laws.

Local government has atrophied since rates on domestic residences and agricultural land was removed. The recent EPA report on the very servious deficiencies in waste water treatment is a strong statement on deficiencies on something essential.
http://www.epa.ie/news/pr/2009/name,26393,en.html

It would be very interesting to do a more detailed analysis of the extent to which this situation has arisen from staffing constraints imposed from central government and/or lack of budgetary freedom for the local authorities. Doing that in a systematic and thorough way would show who is responsible for what and how seriously they took these responsibilities.

It is a cast of mind that does not understand
1) that when you free up organisations, performance improves
2) how to manage, without whimsical and arbitary interference, the freed up organisations
3) how to regulate, by law, instead of endless meddling.
We need to learn this, very quickly!

This is precisely the type of independent thought we need during these difficult times. Critical yet fair.. (at least in my biased opinion )

We need more of it and in more disciplines in Ireland.

@Brian - I do not think the universities share your fears about fees. My experience of students who make a financial contribution (and I have worked in the UK, Australia and Belgium) is generally rewarding - good academics like engaged students seeking value for their money. There is no proposal for home and EU students to pay the full cost of their education - most of the cost of Universities will continue to come from exchequer funding, though with an ambition to increase numbers of non-EU students who pay a fee closer to full cost (but are generally recruited on quality grounds).
Most of the research suggests that university-level qualifications enhance both employability and earning-power. A letter from an Australian correspondent in today’s Irish Times - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2009/0714/1224250637849.html - addresses the issues succinctly. University applications have increased so markedly in the UK (where students pay upfront fees and are eligible for loans) the universities are struggling to cope with the demand - http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jul/09/university-places-shortage-recession.

Its at the post grad/research level where we are failing and if fees can solve this problem then it need to be seriously considered, at a feasible level.

I dont think its a structural problem, were touching more on policy and admin decisions.

We lack a corporate input into universities this is precisely where North America flourishes. Companies invest millions in R&D through research and it paid off at a colossal rate, as was said before many times on this site, just look at the locations of the universities in the US and its technology clusters.
Sorry… forgot to say great post - can’t wait to read your next one!

There is a fixation with Strategic Planning in Irish public administration, which has found legal expression in the case of higher education. This seems to have lead to University administrators and HEA bureaucrats neglecting the vital and mundane tasks of good operational management. As a member of the HEA 20 years ago, I can say that when cuts had to be made, there was greater focus on overall financial discipline, so we in a position whereby institutions were never allowed to run up unsustainable deficits, largely in pursuit of over-ambitious “strategic” goals.

The inability of the Civil Service to respect the autonomy of Universities (or other institutions) is carried to extremes in Ireland: we seem to think that bureaucrats are endowed with some sort of superior insight or have better information and are thus equipped to dictate policies for others. As economists, I think we are aware of the folly of bureaucrats “picking winners” when it comes to industrial policy. But we seem to accept it when it comes to research policy, where despite the existence of peer-review, decisions are heavily influenced by idea that “picking winners” can be applied to research.

Abolishing university undergraduate tuition fees was a disaster, but we should be careful about what we do when reversing it. First, we need tuition fees on a consistent basis, right across the sector, and that includes the Institutes of Technology, which have never had significant levels of fees. Second, going for fees at 100% of estimated course costs may be overkill: tuition fees prior to 1995 were about 30% of University income (and were as low as 10% of income at the end of the 1970s). Finally, while the general principle of loans to finance the payment of tuition fees is welcome, we should not expect too much: the general experience is that even with 100% compliance, loan repayments do not cover the full cost of capital, and in practice the situation usually falls short of full compliance. So be prepared for some more bad loans!

Its at the post grad/research level where we are failing and if fees can solve this problem then it need to be seriously considered, at a feasible level.

I dont think its a structural problem, were touching more on policy and admin decisions.

We lack a corporate input into universities this is precisely where North America flourishes. Companies invest millions in R&D through research and it paid off at a colossal rate, as was said before many times on this site, just look at the locations of the universities in the US and its technology clusters.

I hope that you are not a product of one of our illustrious Universities. I have never heard of “declension” and “eventuate” or maybe that is textspeak which our students now learn at University. Were you around for the 1930s ? I doubt it and unless you are a student/scholar of that period I do not think that you are in a position to predict that we are headed back there. Universities have to be relevant to the society they live in and that is what is important for the future.

The coming debate will have to be about the role of third-level education for an economy in declension. Growth as we know it is over and we are headed back to the 1930s. Will take some time mind you, but it will eventuate.

So, what sort of graduates will we (really) need? That, as the man said, is the question.

The question of fees is a most dangerous issue. Fee (full) paying undergrads are likely to be very tetchy customers indeed. Pity the unfortunate faculty who have to actually teach them. As for undergraduate loans - who in their right mind would incur a debt, when the job prospects will be very difficult?

Brian P

Is this independence worth preserving, has it served society well in the past?

We are now at the stage where ‘everyone knows’ what went on was not sustainable, was foolish and we in Ireland are the authors of most of our own misfortune.

David McWilliams was one of the few voices who consistently warned it would all end in tears. By and large my memory is the universities were silent on the matter.

I don’t recall any warnings from academia from the early years of this decade. There probably were some, but they didn’t get my attention. I’m a layman and don’t move in academic circles, though I follow current events closely.