I will be in Reykjavík for the Icesave referendum (assuming it goes ahead) this Saturday.

Michael Henigan made a good point, albeit one that has been made before, it bears repeating. The government has acted contrary to the interests of voters and of politicians. Why?

Remember that Brussels cannot turn away a depression. It can help by getting markets freed up and NAMA is dedicated to keeping the land market “close”. A technical term meaning almost a monopoly. Is it possible that allowing the banks out of our misery quickly will destroy the power of one or more of these groups?

There will be increasing misery no matter what. But one will be worse than the other.

All——– chiding so skip if you alone are without sin!
Rhetoric has entered these posts and the debate is suffering because of it. This is a site dedicated to economics an imperfect art, masquerading as a science. Let us stick to this or go to politics.ie or twentymajor.ie OK?
What are the economics of the speech?

Fair point. On reflection, sovereignty was transferred to Brussels in early 2009 with the 2009-13 fiscal consolidation plan and the design of NAMA. FF is now implementing a soft IMF plan, along the lines of the scheme currently being negotiated with Greece. Its just that they have not bothered to tell the electorate.

That’s already been done - last year - it was called the Lisbon referendum II.

JTO’s off in California and apparently has sworn off contributing until his return later this year. We’ll see if he can stay away. If I had a penny for every commenter that swore blind they were giving us up and then didn’t, I’d have … well I’d have at least three or four pennies.

Sneak peek at one of the questions.

Which of the following country do we not want to be like?

(a) Greece
(b) Spain
(c) Portugal
(d) Iceland!

Any chance of a hint for this wednesday’s Int. Monetary MCQ?

Cheers!

Aha!

I think you’ve just explained why the L E Niamh has been sent to Argentina.

bjg

Agreed, but unfortunately the two of them are in two different parties.

bjg

Ireland’s current situation is not comparable to Britain, let alone the South East of England, awaiting the Thatcherite boom. Instead we are the North of England after all the industries closed down but with no government transfers to cushion the blow. Ireland in 2010 is the North of England in 1981. At the time of the next election it will be 1983 in the North of England. Unless FF/PDs/GP/Inds, under a new charismatic leader, triumphantly liberate the Aran Islands from an invasion by an Icelandic Junta, we will then witness a gigantic defeat for the government parties. They will be totally smashed in Dublin for instance. Judging by the progress of the Anglo investigation and the outcome of the DCC case that is all the justice we can expect.

Ironically if the government’s policies do work (a huge if) then their successors will reap the rewards. It is hugely more likely though that we are in for massive unemployment followed by massive emigration followed by - depending on the damage done by NAMA - a decade of stagnation or a decade of weak growth.

Re the problems of lack of diligent governance and the euro federalist solution, it is not a Hobson’s choice question.

What matters more is the raising of standards and quality of leadership in Ireland across the board.

Whether we go euro federalism or not belies the real question, this is how we reform the public service and our system of governance. We need this whether we are part of a federal europe or not.

A european type list system would generate new standards in public office for office holders, eg Michael O Leary Minister for tourism. Our democracy can at least asap dump the present feckless lot next time round. Arguments that paint all politicians with the same brush have to seriously consider the titanic disaster foisted on the Irish economy by the present lot.

Ministerial office holders should be relieved of constituency obligations.

Science and Maths, as Intel tell us, standards need to be raised with bonuses at second level to reward the extra work required for these subjects. Professional teachers of talent in these subjects should be rewarded.

Croneyism and nepotism and the failure to properly support our educational system has led to the dumbing down of our nation.

We need political leaders with PhD’s and a return to standards that will enable us to compete intellectually, politically and economically. Not one’s that through croneyism will fall under the sway of errant bankers at the drop of a hat!

Mostly we need aspiration of citizen’s to value these new goals and to refuse the feckless solutions provided by the current lot. We have paid dearly for the dumbing down of politics in the recent past

Agree with you, but effects here because of NAMA may well turn out to be worse than japanese experience, NAMA can bankrupt our economy, sooner rather than later, can’t see it lasting anything near 10 years in its present form, its already wiping out large sectors of our economy!

It is a perfectly legitimate question - and it is more than appropriate to discuss it on this blog - which is Political Economy - if not on this particular thread. Politics, Economics, Democracy, Law, & the Lifeworlds of Ordinary Citizens are inextricably inter-linked - and linked to the broader issue of Governance at local, regional, national, corporate, European and Global levels. Life is inter-disciplinary.

I’ve decided against writing the great volume on The Eras of the Errors of Judgment, and moving to governance instead: anyone interested in joining the European Kantian Pragmatist Republican Party - ‘Citizens First - Cowboy Ferengi Last’ is the rallying cry!

The problem with your premise that all elected govts since 1977have made a horlicks of the situation is to put it mildly unsupported by fact or in the vernacular…”bo”"oc”s. There has been periods of competant governance by both sides from 1987-92 under CJH, possibly 1992 -97 under Labour/FF and FG/Lab/DL and from 1997-02 under Bertie. The 1977-87 period was god awful while Bertie II and Cowen is a complete mess and getting messier.

I suggest you run on a platform of transferring power to Brussels and see where it gets you. There are elected politicians quite capable of providing good govt for the Irish people.

The slides are typical lies and propaganda by this inept and incompetent, feckless and gombeen government.

As for the Iceland slide, arguably Iceland is currently in a better place than we are as it is facing up to its problems. Then of course there is the blindly inept ideological blindfolding of the nation by avoiding mention of successful use of temporary nationalisation as practiced in the nordic countries.

The legacy of this inept minister for finance is:

1. The bank guarantee that has crippled us with the legacy of Anglo’s toxic debt and that of its AIB/BOI/Nationwide cartel

2. The most unfortunate solo run the minister went on without consultation and communication with the European Commission in acting on 1 above.

3. The inept and disastrous way the minister’s croneyism led him to be hobbled by Irish bankers in developing the bankers lifeboat, NAMA, a titanic for taxpayers

4. The destruction of Ireland’s future through emigration of Irish young people and impossible burdens on taxpayers through the blind policies above. Emigration of the youth is used to lance the boil of emigration.

What the slides ignore is the drip by drip toxic effect of these policies upon the Irish economy, instead of a jump from the cliff, we get a slow slide into
perdition. Or am I hearing things from hoteliers stating NAMA is crippling the industry with 15 - 20000 rooms that the industry needs to shed, the product of zombie hotels kept alive by this minister’s zombie NAMA(not another mess again). Multiply that effect across the economy with deflation everywhere! Construction industry dead.

Only jobs available are through expensive NAMA, evaluators?, estate agents and bankers. No more propaganda, take the gloves off and tell it like it is, folks!

“..who will reform the dail/permo-gov?”

For some time FG has been trailing a “New Politics” initiative - it gets sporadic attention in the media highlighting specific features that may or may not reflect its overall thrust. We’ll simply have to wait and see.

However, it is only right and proper that this initiative seems to be coming from the political classes - or at least from one significant strand. And my latent scepticism is fully in tune with your “self-selection” contention.

And yes, on this site Frank Barry has raised governance issues, there was a post on Niamh Hardiman’s paper to the SSISI and Philip Lane has made an excellent case for an independent fiscal committee, but I think there is scope for more engagement on these issues to highlight the link between dysfunction in democratic governance and economic, fiscal and financial debacles.

Not disputing the legitimacy of the question. And I’m not not sure why it may not be appropriate to discuss it here. My contention is that the current financial and economic debacle - following on from the GUBU decade from 1977 - may be directly related to, on one side, the decline into impotence of the Dail and, on the other, the increasing power of government, the “permanent government”, the quangocracy and the unions. This is the context in which economic and regulatory policy has been designed and implemented. As a result I would contend that enhancing the power of the Dail relative to that exercised by government, its agencies and “partners” provides a means of ensuring the design and implementation of more sensible economic policies - and avoiding the repetition of this and earlier debacles.

It may be possible to abstract consideration of economic policy from the dysfunctional system of governance - and that seems to be the preference of many on this site. It is equally possible and legitimate to assert that the track record of elected public representatives has been so disastrous that more policy decision-making power should be transferred to Brussels.

I just happen to believe the former is misguided - and entirely ineffectual; and the latter is undemocratic - unless the consent of the people is sought explicitly.

“No!” the Minister called, “Don’t use the Jaws of Life! There was an accident in Iceland yesterday and they used the Jaws of Life and the driver looked a complete mess when they took him out.”

“But the Jaws of Life aren’t the cause of that! And we can’t just leave him there!”

“My government has a plan in place to deliver him some emergency care in through was is left of the driver’s side window. Furthermore, we have not completely ruled out the possibility of taking him out of the wreckage at some future point in time.”

“But, Minister, he is critical, he needs to get to hospital immediately!”

“Look, taking him out too quickly would be a shock to his family. They need some time to get used to the idea of Mr Rish being an injured man. Also, there’s a vomiting bug in the hospital and of course, the ambulance could crash on the way over there and another reason and a few half thought-through excuses and we are where we are and its the only show in town…”

I view this as a counsel of despair. Yes, I know, reforming the system of democratic governance is a huge task, but further erosion of democratic legitimacy in the current dysfunctional system cannot, in my view, be the way to go.

However, I suspect this continuous transfer of sovereignty - without any explicit popular consent - has considerable traction among many posters and commenters on this site (and, perhaps, among an increasing number of people). Of course, it’s perfectly legitimate to hold this view, but I think it would be useful if the nature and extent of the transfer - and its implications - were spelled out more clearly.

they’re not even good at that. instead they tell you that pre-existing potholes the result of the extreme winter we had.

Since then though we had the following outside leinster house:

- Halifax and Postbank leaving
- Bank of Ireland raising the cost of credit.
- Drip drip unemployment news.
- Greece mess.
- Sterling getting weaker again on hung parliment concerns.

and the inside

- Obvious disconnect characterized in:
Mary Coughlans - they’re leaving for fun comment & Hanger 6 mess.
Tension between Greens and FF - Dan Boyle obviously doesn’t have
much faith in the lasting power of the current government. His twittering
and Vincent Browne appearances have been telling.

From what I can see, the only people out for my (the tax payer) interests are the EU. I’m for surrending more power to Brussels. Let those in leinster house do what they do best - worry about getting votes via pot hole filling.

“family or chips, which to choose?”

Chips.

Your family will follow the chips.