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	<title>Comments on: Bank of Ireland Capital Raising Plans</title>
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	<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 09:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: CarolO'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-53643</link>
		<dc:creator>CarolO'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 12:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-53643</guid>
		<description>Can anyone actually tell me if it is worth my while buying B of I shares at 0.55p......I'm an ex banker and it has been offered with all sorts of "opt out" scenarios.   The one which says "do nothing" basically says that if I do nothing, the shares will be offered to other investors and,  if they sell above the amount offered to me, I will get a cheque for balance.   Is it worth "doing nothing" or should I just opt to sell back to Bank now and only get a few hundred euro for the "priveledge" of offloading them early.    
I have no confidence whatsoever that anyone, with the possible exception of David McWilliams, actually knows what they are talking about!!   Does any Banker or Economist actually know how Economies work and if so........should I sell or hold out in the hope that some other idiot will buy above the offered price to me and I might at least make a few bob,  if the shares rise any time soon!!    HELP !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can anyone actually tell me if it is worth my while buying B of I shares at 0.55p&#8230;&#8230;I&#8217;m an ex banker and it has been offered with all sorts of &#8220;opt out&#8221; scenarios.   The one which says &#8220;do nothing&#8221; basically says that if I do nothing, the shares will be offered to other investors and,  if they sell above the amount offered to me, I will get a cheque for balance.   Is it worth &#8220;doing nothing&#8221; or should I just opt to sell back to Bank now and only get a few hundred euro for the &#8220;priveledge&#8221; of offloading them early.<br />
I have no confidence whatsoever that anyone, with the possible exception of David McWilliams, actually knows what they are talking about!!   Does any Banker or Economist actually know how Economies work and if so&#8230;&#8230;..should I sell or hold out in the hope that some other idiot will buy above the offered price to me and I might at least make a few bob,  if the shares rise any time soon!!    HELP !</p>
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		<title>By: tull mcadoo</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47905</link>
		<dc:creator>tull mcadoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47905</guid>
		<description>Janine

A right issue is a offer of new shares to all existing shareholders on the register on a a given day. Usually it is in proportion to their existing holding i.e 1 new share for each share they hold at the given day. In addition it is usually priced at a discount to entice shareholder to participate.

THe two placings done this week at 1.53 for the instutional share holders and 1.80 to the NPRF were to get them onto the share register to qualify for the rights. This is somewhat contraversial aspect in that it dilutes existing shareholders. As of last Friday there were about 1.1bn shares qualified for the rights issue but after the placings the number of shares rises to 2bn.

The rights issue will be done at a discount to the existing share price-probably around 75p and there will be something like 1 new shares issued for each existing share. It could be 1.2. 

In theory the shares should trade down to the weigthted average of say 1.50 +0.75 on completion. Say 1.125 or so. From then on they trade up and or down in accordance with the markets assessment of the value of the shares.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Janine</p>
<p>A right issue is a offer of new shares to all existing shareholders on the register on a a given day. Usually it is in proportion to their existing holding i.e 1 new share for each share they hold at the given day. In addition it is usually priced at a discount to entice shareholder to participate.</p>
<p>THe two placings done this week at 1.53 for the instutional share holders and 1.80 to the NPRF were to get them onto the share register to qualify for the rights. This is somewhat contraversial aspect in that it dilutes existing shareholders. As of last Friday there were about 1.1bn shares qualified for the rights issue but after the placings the number of shares rises to 2bn.</p>
<p>The rights issue will be done at a discount to the existing share price-probably around 75p and there will be something like 1 new shares issued for each existing share. It could be 1.2. </p>
<p>In theory the shares should trade down to the weigthted average of say 1.50 +0.75 on completion. Say 1.125 or so. From then on they trade up and or down in accordance with the markets assessment of the value of the shares.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47830</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47830</guid>
		<description>Just remember in a depression we will have far less business for banks to conduct. People and businesses will borrow less. So the banks need for capital will be less. But their loss of capital by bad debts will increase as the depression deepens. 

All the capital will be lost until a few years before the turnaround, hence the importance, JOSEPH, of knowing when that will be. I naively believe that we can set out some clues to that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just remember in a depression we will have far less business for banks to conduct. People and businesses will borrow less. So the banks need for capital will be less. But their loss of capital by bad debts will increase as the depression deepens. </p>
<p>All the capital will be lost until a few years before the turnaround, hence the importance, JOSEPH, of knowing when that will be. I naively believe that we can set out some clues to that.</p>
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		<title>By: Janine</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47790</link>
		<dc:creator>Janine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47790</guid>
		<description>Can some please explain the rights issue to me. Why are the existing shareholders getting shares at a 40% discount when the institutional investors are paying 1.53? I'm confused. Will the share price trade at the discounted price when the rights issue is closed. Please help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can some please explain the rights issue to me. Why are the existing shareholders getting shares at a 40% discount when the institutional investors are paying 1.53? I&#8217;m confused. Will the share price trade at the discounted price when the rights issue is closed. Please help.</p>
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		<title>By: yoganmahew</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47777</link>
		<dc:creator>yoganmahew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 11:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47777</guid>
		<description>@Tull
"n effect, the NPRF is paying over the odds for the equity and receiving over the odds for the prefs. This part of the transaction was done over the odds to conceal the fact that the origianal prefs were a dumb deal &#38; shortchanged the taxpayer."
I don't disagree with you, my beef, though, is that the preference share agreements only allow for the banks to redeem the preference shares at par. There is no mechanism for them to redeem them at the market value of other preference shares. They are essentially fixed in value. As they have no secondary market, they are also fixed in price - the only customer is the bank itself and the price is set in the banks articles (of which the preference share agreement forms part).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tull<br />
&#8220;n effect, the NPRF is paying over the odds for the equity and receiving over the odds for the prefs. This part of the transaction was done over the odds to conceal the fact that the origianal prefs were a dumb deal &amp; shortchanged the taxpayer.&#8221;<br />
I don&#8217;t disagree with you, my beef, though, is that the preference share agreements only allow for the banks to redeem the preference shares at par. There is no mechanism for them to redeem them at the market value of other preference shares. They are essentially fixed in value. As they have no secondary market, they are also fixed in price - the only customer is the bank itself and the price is set in the banks articles (of which the preference share agreement forms part).</p>
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		<title>By: tull mcadoo</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47411</link>
		<dc:creator>tull mcadoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 05:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47411</guid>
		<description>Yes the idea of the prefs and warrants was smart allicy. It was inserting what was effectively debt instrument into a bank a pretending it was equity. Every other country from UK, France, US used them. The TaRP being the notable example. The UL was the first to abandon it and go straight back to ordinary equity. In a crisis, investors onlly wan to know about tangible equity not pretend equity.

They had to "sell" the prefs to buy the shares or stump up cash from the NPRF. You can value the prefs using Bloomberg and because the coupon is too low, the stock would be trading well below par. So in effect, the NPRF is paying over the odds for the equity and receiving over the odds for the prefs. This part of the transaction was done over the odds to conceal the fact that the origianal prefs were a dumb deal &#38; shortchanged the taxpayer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes the idea of the prefs and warrants was smart allicy. It was inserting what was effectively debt instrument into a bank a pretending it was equity. Every other country from UK, France, US used them. The TaRP being the notable example. The UL was the first to abandon it and go straight back to ordinary equity. In a crisis, investors onlly wan to know about tangible equity not pretend equity.</p>
<p>They had to &#8220;sell&#8221; the prefs to buy the shares or stump up cash from the NPRF. You can value the prefs using Bloomberg and because the coupon is too low, the stock would be trading well below par. So in effect, the NPRF is paying over the odds for the equity and receiving over the odds for the prefs. This part of the transaction was done over the odds to conceal the fact that the origianal prefs were a dumb deal &amp; shortchanged the taxpayer.</p>
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		<title>By: Carrawaystick</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47378</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrawaystick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47378</guid>
		<description>Weren't ACC a state owned bank? when did Rabo buy them and how badly were they run to leave Rabo with a AAA credit rating?

unless they're the exception that proves the rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Weren&#8217;t ACC a state owned bank? when did Rabo buy them and how badly were they run to leave Rabo with a AAA credit rating?</p>
<p>unless they&#8217;re the exception that proves the rule.</p>
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		<title>By: yoganmahew</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47360</link>
		<dc:creator>yoganmahew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47360</guid>
		<description>@Tull
"They are getting fullmarket value for the warrants."
Current value perhaps. Future value? I doubt it.

Besides the basis for the warrants is:
"Following this recapitalisation, the State will not hold ordinary shares in either bank (other than existing NPRF holdings), but it will have an option to buy shares in five years time at a predetermined strike price, thus providing the State with the potential for a significant return. "
Clearly this has all been thrown out the window anyway!

"BTW, exiting their 8% prefs at 100 is a great piece of business."
Well, not really. They have no requirement to sell, indeed, they are holding them at par, so selling at less will crystallise a loss. As it is, they are sitting on a 27 mn euro loss today having bought at 1.80.

"The only way they and take up 685m of a 1.8bn right issue is by buying extra shares. This they are doing in a placing."
But why were the private capital charged 1.53 (a 15% discount) for the 500 mn they bought of the placement? This rather gives the lie to the idea that the preference shares paying par was a good deal. Considering the government preference shares were paying in either equity or at 8%, I don't see any reason they'd be trading about 80. There isn't a market in them anyway, so it is supposition, but logically speaking they are a no lose bet (equity to the value of cash or cash).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tull<br />
&#8220;They are getting fullmarket value for the warrants.&#8221;<br />
Current value perhaps. Future value? I doubt it.</p>
<p>Besides the basis for the warrants is:<br />
&#8220;Following this recapitalisation, the State will not hold ordinary shares in either bank (other than existing NPRF holdings), but it will have an option to buy shares in five years time at a predetermined strike price, thus providing the State with the potential for a significant return. &#8221;<br />
Clearly this has all been thrown out the window anyway!</p>
<p>&#8220;BTW, exiting their 8% prefs at 100 is a great piece of business.&#8221;<br />
Well, not really. They have no requirement to sell, indeed, they are holding them at par, so selling at less will crystallise a loss. As it is, they are sitting on a 27 mn euro loss today having bought at 1.80.</p>
<p>&#8220;The only way they and take up 685m of a 1.8bn right issue is by buying extra shares. This they are doing in a placing.&#8221;<br />
But why were the private capital charged 1.53 (a 15% discount) for the 500 mn they bought of the placement? This rather gives the lie to the idea that the preference shares paying par was a good deal. Considering the government preference shares were paying in either equity or at 8%, I don&#8217;t see any reason they&#8217;d be trading about 80. There isn&#8217;t a market in them anyway, so it is supposition, but logically speaking they are a no lose bet (equity to the value of cash or cash).</p>
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		<title>By: AMcG</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47358</link>
		<dc:creator>AMcG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47358</guid>
		<description>Keiser
http://maxkeiser.com/2010/04/16/max-keiser-the-goldman-sachs-are-scum-video/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keiser<br />
<a href="http://maxkeiser.com/2010/04/16/max-keiser-the-goldman-sachs-are-scum-video/" rel="nofollow">http://maxkeiser.com/2010/04/16/max-keiser-the-goldman-sachs-are-scum-video/</a></p>
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		<title>By: AMcG</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47356</link>
		<dc:creator>AMcG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47356</guid>
		<description>Nice to see Blankfein squirming at th senate committee - on Bloomberg right now - "Goldman Sachs are scum" as Max Keiser says.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice to see Blankfein squirming at th senate committee - on Bloomberg right now - &#8220;Goldman Sachs are scum&#8221; as Max Keiser says.</p>
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		<title>By: tull mcadoo</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47354</link>
		<dc:creator>tull mcadoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47354</guid>
		<description>I don't believe in "this time etc" but I am pleasantly surprised that the govt got a better deal at the third attempt. I do not know if it due to the fact that
  i) policy formulation for the Bank's has been transferred to NTMA
 ii) if the quality of the Invesment Banking advice has improved or
 iii) if the CB/Regulator is more competant
iv) the EC is in the background
or if it merely down to the fact that if you put an infinite number of chimps in a room they will eventually write the great novel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe in &#8220;this time etc&#8221; but I am pleasantly surprised that the govt got a better deal at the third attempt. I do not know if it due to the fact that<br />
  i) policy formulation for the Bank&#8217;s has been transferred to NTMA<br />
 ii) if the quality of the Invesment Banking advice has improved or<br />
 iii) if the CB/Regulator is more competant<br />
iv) the EC is in the background<br />
or if it merely down to the fact that if you put an infinite number of chimps in a room they will eventually write the great novel.</p>
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		<title>By: tull mcadoo</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47353</link>
		<dc:creator>tull mcadoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47353</guid>
		<description>Yogan

Their pre rights share holding was 16%. Thus they could only take up 16% of the rights issue. The only way they and take up 685m of a 1.8bn right issue is by buying extra shares. This they are doing in a placing.

BTW, exiting their 8% prefs at 100 is a great piece of business. If you were to sell this in an open market transaction, I doubt whether you would get more than 80.

They are getting fullmarket value for the warrants. I am not a legal expert, but I don't see how having a warrant exercisable in 5 years time, gives you the right to participate in a rights issue now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yogan</p>
<p>Their pre rights share holding was 16%. Thus they could only take up 16% of the rights issue. The only way they and take up 685m of a 1.8bn right issue is by buying extra shares. This they are doing in a placing.</p>
<p>BTW, exiting their 8% prefs at 100 is a great piece of business. If you were to sell this in an open market transaction, I doubt whether you would get more than 80.</p>
<p>They are getting fullmarket value for the warrants. I am not a legal expert, but I don&#8217;t see how having a warrant exercisable in 5 years time, gives you the right to participate in a rights issue now.</p>
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		<title>By: yoganmahew</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47349</link>
		<dc:creator>yoganmahew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47349</guid>
		<description>@Tull
"Where is the evidence that the taxpayer has been stiffed this time on BOI?"
Because of the two-stage process. The tax payer is converting 1 bn of preference shares to equity at 1.80

Then they are buying into the discounted rights issue with 700 mn of preference shares to prevent that 1 bn and their previous (preference dividend) shareholding from being diluted. What would the shareholding have been if there had been no first round conversion and all 1.7 bn had bought at the discounted rights price?

The selling of the warrants also has 'sweetheart' written all over it.

And I never believe "this time it's different" :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tull<br />
&#8220;Where is the evidence that the taxpayer has been stiffed this time on BOI?&#8221;<br />
Because of the two-stage process. The tax payer is converting 1 bn of preference shares to equity at 1.80</p>
<p>Then they are buying into the discounted rights issue with 700 mn of preference shares to prevent that 1 bn and their previous (preference dividend) shareholding from being diluted. What would the shareholding have been if there had been no first round conversion and all 1.7 bn had bought at the discounted rights price?</p>
<p>The selling of the warrants also has &#8217;sweetheart&#8217; written all over it.</p>
<p>And I never believe &#8220;this time it&#8217;s different&#8221; <img src='http://www.irisheconomy.ie/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: tull mcadoo</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47348</link>
		<dc:creator>tull mcadoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47348</guid>
		<description>Yogan,

wow thats long and willtake time for me to understand and digest.

Where is the evidence that the taxpayer has been stiffed this time on BOI?
Sure we were stiffed on Anglo and stiffed on the Prefs but not this time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yogan,</p>
<p>wow thats long and willtake time for me to understand and digest.</p>
<p>Where is the evidence that the taxpayer has been stiffed this time on BOI?<br />
Sure we were stiffed on Anglo and stiffed on the Prefs but not this time.</p>
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		<title>By: yoganmahew</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47346</link>
		<dc:creator>yoganmahew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47346</guid>
		<description>@Tull
"Let me get this straight. You want the govt to get a return on its money as implied by “fair whack”. This means to me that depsoit rates which are already 1% above Euribor have to come down for certain.
It also means lending rates have to rise. Of course the banks will have to be careful about how they do this for fear of tipping more people/business over the edge. "
Nope. I want the state (not the government, as such) to get its fair whack by getting a fair whack of ownership of the bank. I don't much care how this ownership is exercised, whether it is split into competing groups who are free to manage/blind trust/sell their holdings, how much the future dividends are etc.

Just that the state is not artificially disadvantaged by the pursuit of a failed and discredited model of ownership - that majority private sector ownership is the best thing and that limiting the ownership portion of the state and paying back state preference shares are desirable explicit objects.

I understand the need both to increase the core equity ratio and to anticipate Basel III, but there are other methods to reduce preference share-holdings; contingent convertibles, even taken to Rabo's extreme are one such method. 

Most of all, I would like to see an end to the spoofing that BoI is somehow 'fine' because the taxpayer has been stiffed. That all will be okay both with the institution and the credit market in Ireland. That all this is going to end up costing us nothing and might even turn a handy profit for the taxpayer har har. It is spoken as lies except where it is being spoken as ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tull<br />
&#8220;Let me get this straight. You want the govt to get a return on its money as implied by “fair whack”. This means to me that depsoit rates which are already 1% above Euribor have to come down for certain.<br />
It also means lending rates have to rise. Of course the banks will have to be careful about how they do this for fear of tipping more people/business over the edge. &#8221;<br />
Nope. I want the state (not the government, as such) to get its fair whack by getting a fair whack of ownership of the bank. I don&#8217;t much care how this ownership is exercised, whether it is split into competing groups who are free to manage/blind trust/sell their holdings, how much the future dividends are etc.</p>
<p>Just that the state is not artificially disadvantaged by the pursuit of a failed and discredited model of ownership - that majority private sector ownership is the best thing and that limiting the ownership portion of the state and paying back state preference shares are desirable explicit objects.</p>
<p>I understand the need both to increase the core equity ratio and to anticipate Basel III, but there are other methods to reduce preference share-holdings; contingent convertibles, even taken to Rabo&#8217;s extreme are one such method. </p>
<p>Most of all, I would like to see an end to the spoofing that BoI is somehow &#8216;fine&#8217; because the taxpayer has been stiffed. That all will be okay both with the institution and the credit market in Ireland. That all this is going to end up costing us nothing and might even turn a handy profit for the taxpayer har har. It is spoken as lies except where it is being spoken as ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Vandt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47339</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Vandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47339</guid>
		<description>@All
The moustache was in fact compared to a toilet brush:
"Deputy Willie O’Dea....sniped at me from under his moustache like a pet hamster in a bathroom squinting over the toilet brush."
http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2010-03-25.522.0</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@All<br />
The moustache was in fact compared to a toilet brush:<br />
&#8220;Deputy Willie O’Dea&#8230;.sniped at me from under his moustache like a pet hamster in a bathroom squinting over the toilet brush.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2010-03-25.522.0" rel="nofollow">http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2010-03-25.522.0</a></p>
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		<title>By: tull mcadoo</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47331</link>
		<dc:creator>tull mcadoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47331</guid>
		<description>@ Yogan

Let me get this straight. You want the govt to get a return on its money as implied by "fair whack". This means to me that depsoit rates which are already 1% above Euribor have to come down for certain. 
It also means lending rates have to rise. Of course the banks will have to be careful about how they do this for fear of tipping more people/business over the edge. 

@ D_E
I do not follow your logic. Post the recap BOI has sufficient equity capital to pass the FR stress test. It is also under an edict from the EU to shrink its loan book in the UK and divest ICs. Therefore, its loan book will shrink. So to generate interest income and cover its costs, it is gong to have to expand its Irish loan book at highwer margins too... somehow. Otherwise how can it turn a profit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Yogan</p>
<p>Let me get this straight. You want the govt to get a return on its money as implied by &#8220;fair whack&#8221;. This means to me that depsoit rates which are already 1% above Euribor have to come down for certain.<br />
It also means lending rates have to rise. Of course the banks will have to be careful about how they do this for fear of tipping more people/business over the edge. </p>
<p>@ D_E<br />
I do not follow your logic. Post the recap BOI has sufficient equity capital to pass the FR stress test. It is also under an edict from the EU to shrink its loan book in the UK and divest ICs. Therefore, its loan book will shrink. So to generate interest income and cover its costs, it is gong to have to expand its Irish loan book at highwer margins too&#8230; somehow. Otherwise how can it turn a profit.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47304</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47304</guid>
		<description>H'mmm ... things seem to have moved from 'manageable' to 'easy' now.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0427/breaking48.html

I recall the first time I ever went water ski-ing. After getting up first time and then doing a couple of laps around an island just off the beach, I started thinking how 'easy' this is........ about four seconds later I discovered just how hard water is when you hit it at 40mph. Ouch! 

It's not pride that comes before a fall, it's a lack of vigilance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>H&#8217;mmm &#8230; things seem to have moved from &#8216;manageable&#8217; to &#8216;easy&#8217; now.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0427/breaking48.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0427/breaking48.html</a></p>
<p>I recall the first time I ever went water ski-ing. After getting up first time and then doing a couple of laps around an island just off the beach, I started thinking how &#8216;easy&#8217; this is&#8230;&#8230;.. about four seconds later I discovered just how hard water is when you hit it at 40mph. Ouch! </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not pride that comes before a fall, it&#8217;s a lack of vigilance.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob S</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47281</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47281</guid>
		<description>So the Government wil be left with €1.8bn in Preference Shares after this?

Indo is reporting €2.8bn, surely that is a mistake?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the Government wil be left with €1.8bn in Preference Shares after this?</p>
<p>Indo is reporting €2.8bn, surely that is a mistake?</p>
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		<title>By: London_Reader</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47274</link>
		<dc:creator>London_Reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47274</guid>
		<description>@Frank Galton

This is fantastical as it implied another €1.75+bn impairment provision is coming to BoI courtesy of its NAMA portfolio.

At December 31st 2009, loans for NAMA €12.24bn, provision €2.78bn, net €9.46bn. If they only get 63% of the value that would be net €7.71bn. Implies total provision of €4.53bn. So an incremental €1.75bn. On top of this would be write-downs from related derivatives.

But the analysts at banks/brokers are likely to be all geared up to do the placing/ rights issue and may forget to mention this (or have already modeled it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Frank Galton</p>
<p>This is fantastical as it implied another €1.75+bn impairment provision is coming to BoI courtesy of its NAMA portfolio.</p>
<p>At December 31st 2009, loans for NAMA €12.24bn, provision €2.78bn, net €9.46bn. If they only get 63% of the value that would be net €7.71bn. Implies total provision of €4.53bn. So an incremental €1.75bn. On top of this would be write-downs from related derivatives.</p>
<p>But the analysts at banks/brokers are likely to be all geared up to do the placing/ rights issue and may forget to mention this (or have already modeled it).</p>
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		<title>By: yoganmahew</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47249</link>
		<dc:creator>yoganmahew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47249</guid>
		<description>@tull mcadoo
“Therfore, there is not a cat in hells chance that the proceed of this capital raise will be used to buy back preference shares in the next three years.”

@D_E said:
"This is probably the worst part of the deal structure.
BOI will do everything possible in order to repay the preference shares.
That means it will lend next nothing over the next few years in order to rebuild its capital.

The complete opposite of the stated raison d’etre for the bank recapitalization."
Exactly my concern. 

I hold no candle for nationalisation, pre/postemptively or whatever, but there are two things I want to see:
1. The state getting a fair whack for saving the bank.
2. The bank being in a position to resume normal business.

What I fear is that the bank will increase mortgages and reduce deposit rates to enable it to accumulate cash to repay the preference shares. Now what was that I heard on the news this morning?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tull mcadoo<br />
“Therfore, there is not a cat in hells chance that the proceed of this capital raise will be used to buy back preference shares in the next three years.”</p>
<p>@D_E said:<br />
&#8220;This is probably the worst part of the deal structure.<br />
BOI will do everything possible in order to repay the preference shares.<br />
That means it will lend next nothing over the next few years in order to rebuild its capital.</p>
<p>The complete opposite of the stated raison d’etre for the bank recapitalization.&#8221;<br />
Exactly my concern. </p>
<p>I hold no candle for nationalisation, pre/postemptively or whatever, but there are two things I want to see:<br />
1. The state getting a fair whack for saving the bank.<br />
2. The bank being in a position to resume normal business.</p>
<p>What I fear is that the bank will increase mortgages and reduce deposit rates to enable it to accumulate cash to repay the preference shares. Now what was that I heard on the news this morning?</p>
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		<title>By: Garo</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47246</link>
		<dc:creator>Garo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47246</guid>
		<description>@BL: Apologies for the ambiguity. I was referring to karl deeter's remark about wanting to invest now but not if the bank had been temporarily nationalised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BL: Apologies for the ambiguity. I was referring to karl deeter&#8217;s remark about wanting to invest now but not if the bank had been temporarily nationalised.</p>
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		<title>By: Dreaded_Estate</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47244</link>
		<dc:creator>Dreaded_Estate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47244</guid>
		<description>@tull mcadoo 
"Therfore, there is not a cat in hells chance that the proceed of this capital raise will be used to buy back preference shares in the next three years."

This is probably the worst part of the deal structure.
BOI will do everything possible in order to repay the preference shares.
That means it will lend next nothing over the next few years in order to rebuild its capital. 

The complete opposite of the stated raison d'etre for the bank recapitalization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tull mcadoo<br />
&#8220;Therfore, there is not a cat in hells chance that the proceed of this capital raise will be used to buy back preference shares in the next three years.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is probably the worst part of the deal structure.<br />
BOI will do everything possible in order to repay the preference shares.<br />
That means it will lend next nothing over the next few years in order to rebuild its capital. </p>
<p>The complete opposite of the stated raison d&#8217;etre for the bank recapitalization.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47239</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47239</guid>
		<description>http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&#38;aid=18809

Gold in Sacks is not the only one ripping off their customers. The NYSE churn of bank shares is colossal and reflects manipulation by the PPT. The Presidents Plunge protection team. Tarp money being used for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&amp;aid=18809" rel="nofollow">http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&amp;aid=18809</a></p>
<p>Gold in Sacks is not the only one ripping off their customers. The NYSE churn of bank shares is colossal and reflects manipulation by the PPT. The Presidents Plunge protection team. Tarp money being used for that.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47236</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47236</guid>
		<description>Just looking at the lead story in today's IT after the placing yesterday - Lenihan telling us that BoI has emerged from crisis. "The Government maintained that the real financial benefit would be that the recapitalised bank would “now be in a position to provide credit to Irish businesses and households as the economy recovers”.

It's 6am and I can't be bothered to comment on this drivel. I must go out and see if I can get into more debt today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just looking at the lead story in today&#8217;s IT after the placing yesterday - Lenihan telling us that BoI has emerged from crisis. &#8220;The Government maintained that the real financial benefit would be that the recapitalised bank would “now be in a position to provide credit to Irish businesses and households as the economy recovers”.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s 6am and I can&#8217;t be bothered to comment on this drivel. I must go out and see if I can get into more debt today.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47233</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 04:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47233</guid>
		<description>@Pat Donnelly - When will we know that recovery is truly “just around the corner”. 

Didn't you know? We have already 'turned the corner and the worst is behind us' ?? BL said so in the December budget.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pat Donnelly - When will we know that recovery is truly “just around the corner”. </p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t you know? We have already &#8216;turned the corner and the worst is behind us&#8217; ?? BL said so in the December budget.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47223</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 03:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47223</guid>
		<description>There is a bank in South Dakota that has suffered no runs since establishment,  I think, before the 1930's depression and is still in business. That is right, in the USA it is a state owned bank. Publicly owned. Well run. 

Doctrinaire capitalist idiots fuelled the banking bubble in Ireland.

There appear to be some on this blog. They will find adapting difficult.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a bank in South Dakota that has suffered no runs since establishment,  I think, before the 1930&#8217;s depression and is still in business. That is right, in the USA it is a state owned bank. Publicly owned. Well run. </p>
<p>Doctrinaire capitalist idiots fuelled the banking bubble in Ireland.</p>
<p>There appear to be some on this blog. They will find adapting difficult.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47222</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 02:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47222</guid>
		<description>WOW
Excellent point!
I have suggested that this analysis of "what the minister or NAMA is up to" is a waste of time. Either it works and it costs the taxpayer less or it doesn't. 

The effort should be to identify where the real economy will settle, now that the inflating factors aside from NAMA, have ceased. When will we know that recovery is truly "just around the corner". The Japanese are struggling and are now into 200% GDP public debt. They still have no hope! Are we to suffer the same fate? NAMA not selling land suggests, yes. NAMA selling land suggests no. The timing is important. The longer it takes the more it costs the taxpayer. The Japanese banks did not sell off their non-performing securities. 

As Iceland had no real stake in the systemic importance of "their" (pirate, parasite) banks, they may have suffered less than Ireland, except there is now a 5,000,000,000 entry to EU fee, payable to England and Netherlands.......  All they lost was the potential dividends, salaries etc all of which were very recent. Ireland's bubble banks were sucking out our juices for decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WOW<br />
Excellent point!<br />
I have suggested that this analysis of &#8220;what the minister or NAMA is up to&#8221; is a waste of time. Either it works and it costs the taxpayer less or it doesn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>The effort should be to identify where the real economy will settle, now that the inflating factors aside from NAMA, have ceased. When will we know that recovery is truly &#8220;just around the corner&#8221;. The Japanese are struggling and are now into 200% GDP public debt. They still have no hope! Are we to suffer the same fate? NAMA not selling land suggests, yes. NAMA selling land suggests no. The timing is important. The longer it takes the more it costs the taxpayer. The Japanese banks did not sell off their non-performing securities. </p>
<p>As Iceland had no real stake in the systemic importance of &#8220;their&#8221; (pirate, parasite) banks, they may have suffered less than Ireland, except there is now a 5,000,000,000 entry to EU fee, payable to England and Netherlands&#8230;&#8230;.  All they lost was the potential dividends, salaries etc all of which were very recent. Ireland&#8217;s bubble banks were sucking out our juices for decades.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Browne</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47215</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Browne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47215</guid>
		<description>@ Greg

Thanks for posting those links, Frau Merkel speaks the truth. These statements must put a shiver up the spines of our NAMA SPV engineers and our creative accountants in the DoF with their promissory notes and Bills of exchange. Looks like Irelands national debt will hit 24% shortly. As for the stability and growth pact, yes we broke it, continue to break it and think that we should be able to masquerade and massage our figures at will. After all, we are Irish we are not serious people they should know that. Frau Merkel is a spoil sport, but somehow I think there will not be too many Germans investing in BoI especially in hindsight after the "light touch" regulation on depfa bank which cost them a mere 100bn.

Then again, was it not Von Lenihan und company that claimed that it was his officials that told  Eurostat how they must treat the 4bn given to Anglo. Mein Gott, I thought he could not get any more delusional but it seems he runs Eurostat too.

Von Lenihan, will soon learn that the markets do not buy into barrister speak for very long and that you can fool most of the people all of the time but only if thy live in Ireland and their surname is not Lucy or Gurdgiev .   He should also keep an eye on the German  Verfassungsgericht and the four professors of the apocalypse who do not come bearing Greek gifts.

If only, our economy could run on platitudes rather than record levels of sovereign debt, if only that debt did not have to be serviced by a seriously shrunk economy and now they tell us we cannot lie with the figures. If only?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Greg</p>
<p>Thanks for posting those links, Frau Merkel speaks the truth. These statements must put a shiver up the spines of our NAMA SPV engineers and our creative accountants in the DoF with their promissory notes and Bills of exchange. Looks like Irelands national debt will hit 24% shortly. As for the stability and growth pact, yes we broke it, continue to break it and think that we should be able to masquerade and massage our figures at will. After all, we are Irish we are not serious people they should know that. Frau Merkel is a spoil sport, but somehow I think there will not be too many Germans investing in BoI especially in hindsight after the &#8220;light touch&#8221; regulation on depfa bank which cost them a mere 100bn.</p>
<p>Then again, was it not Von Lenihan und company that claimed that it was his officials that told  Eurostat how they must treat the 4bn given to Anglo. Mein Gott, I thought he could not get any more delusional but it seems he runs Eurostat too.</p>
<p>Von Lenihan, will soon learn that the markets do not buy into barrister speak for very long and that you can fool most of the people all of the time but only if thy live in Ireland and their surname is not Lucy or Gurdgiev .   He should also keep an eye on the German  Verfassungsgericht and the four professors of the apocalypse who do not come bearing Greek gifts.</p>
<p>If only, our economy could run on platitudes rather than record levels of sovereign debt, if only that debt did not have to be serviced by a seriously shrunk economy and now they tell us we cannot lie with the figures. If only?</p>
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		<title>By: Aiman</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/26/bank-of-ireland-capital-raising-plans/#comment-47213</link>
		<dc:creator>Aiman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6477#comment-47213</guid>
		<description>From the BoI announcement - "Citigroup Global Markets U.K. Equity Limited ("Citi"), Credit Suisse, Davy, Deutsche Bank AG and UBS Investment Bank are acting as joint bookrunners and underwriters."

If the issue doesn't go as planned, can/will the State step in to take stock from the underwriters?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the BoI announcement - &#8220;Citigroup Global Markets U.K. Equity Limited (&#8221;Citi&#8221;), Credit Suisse, Davy, Deutsche Bank AG and UBS Investment Bank are acting as joint bookrunners and underwriters.&#8221;</p>
<p>If the issue doesn&#8217;t go as planned, can/will the State step in to take stock from the underwriters?</p>
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