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	<title>Comments on: A Carbon Windfall Levy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-49100</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 15:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-49100</guid>
		<description>Sean, 
According to the latest EU decisions for the third phase of trading, it looks like pretty much all non-powergen sectors cannot pass through the marginal cost and thus are exposed to carbon leakage or losses in competitiveness.   
 
In this regard it makes sense only to claw back the windfall gains from power generators.  The rest got to pollute for free, but at least there was no financial gain from it.

This is still a long ways from polluter pays principle but at least with the windfall profit tax, pollution is no longer directly subsidized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean,<br />
According to the latest EU decisions for the third phase of trading, it looks like pretty much all non-powergen sectors cannot pass through the marginal cost and thus are exposed to carbon leakage or losses in competitiveness.   </p>
<p>In this regard it makes sense only to claw back the windfall gains from power generators.  The rest got to pollute for free, but at least there was no financial gain from it.</p>
<p>This is still a long ways from polluter pays principle but at least with the windfall profit tax, pollution is no longer directly subsidized.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-49076</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 14:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-49076</guid>
		<description>The treatment of energy related allowances in the next commitment period certainly makes more sense than this period.  Give somebody something for nothing, then force them to include this in their marginal price, then tax them on this inclusion.  Only governments could arrive at this regulation.  
Regarding the other participants, does the WPI tell us anything about their level of pass through.  The fact that oil prices spiked in 2008 make it difficult to tell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The treatment of energy related allowances in the next commitment period certainly makes more sense than this period.  Give somebody something for nothing, then force them to include this in their marginal price, then tax them on this inclusion.  Only governments could arrive at this regulation.<br />
Regarding the other participants, does the WPI tell us anything about their level of pass through.  The fact that oil prices spiked in 2008 make it difficult to tell</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Lyons</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48966</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Lyons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 08:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48966</guid>
		<description>@ Barry, Richard,

While no one has published work on the actual level of passthrough of ETS permit costs into retail prices for Ireland, there is a regulatory requirement for electricity generators in the all-island market to pass it through; see e.g.

http://www.allislandproject.org/GetAttachment.aspx?id=777ff915-5887-462d-974a-07371acf4402

Presumably the market monitoring unit is checking compliance with these rules, but they tend to publish results only when they have investigated a specific complaint.

A related interesting question is why the windfall tax applies only to electricity generators and not to other ETS participants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Barry, Richard,</p>
<p>While no one has published work on the actual level of passthrough of ETS permit costs into retail prices for Ireland, there is a regulatory requirement for electricity generators in the all-island market to pass it through; see e.g.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.allislandproject.org/GetAttachment.aspx?id=777ff915-5887-462d-974a-07371acf4402" rel="nofollow">http://www.allislandproject.org/GetAttachment.aspx?id=777ff915-5887-462d-974a-07371acf4402</a></p>
<p>Presumably the market monitoring unit is checking compliance with these rules, but they tend to publish results only when they have investigated a specific complaint.</p>
<p>A related interesting question is why the windfall tax applies only to electricity generators and not to other ETS participants.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Tol</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48921</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Tol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 04:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48921</guid>
		<description>@Carrawaystick
The tax is on carbon dioxide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Carrawaystick<br />
The tax is on carbon dioxide.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48905</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 03:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48905</guid>
		<description>This whole AGW business, and I mean lucrative business, is too much and a serious scientific debate is required as we are wasting too many euro etc on foolish malinvestment.

Let the boosters of this find themselves a decent career in fighting corruption?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole AGW business, and I mean lucrative business, is too much and a serious scientific debate is required as we are wasting too many euro etc on foolish malinvestment.</p>
<p>Let the boosters of this find themselves a decent career in fighting corruption?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh Sheehy</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48871</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh Sheehy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 00:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48871</guid>
		<description>@Jules.
I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but I don't think Ireland is the highest CO2 per capita.  See http://goo.gl/3dr9  

It seems unlikely to me that Ireland has overtaken the US or other leading countries.

@Carrawaystick
AFAIK the sparks from sparklers are mostly from iron and aluminium, although I'm sure that there can be other metals in there too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jules.<br />
I&#8217;m not sure I understand you correctly, but I don&#8217;t think Ireland is the highest CO2 per capita.  See <a href="http://goo.gl/3dr9" rel="nofollow">http://goo.gl/3dr9</a>  </p>
<p>It seems unlikely to me that Ireland has overtaken the US or other leading countries.</p>
<p>@Carrawaystick<br />
AFAIK the sparks from sparklers are mostly from iron and aluminium, although I&#8217;m sure that there can be other metals in there too.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Vandt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48861</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Vandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 23:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48861</guid>
		<description>@Jules
It looks like the whole Dail are trying to reduce their carbon footprint:
"Just 17 of the country’s 134 TDs turned up for work in the Dail every day in the two weeks after the introduction of a “clocking-in” system on March 1. 

The TDs with the worst attendance records in that period included Willie O’Dea, the former defence minister, who did not visit Leinster House at all, and Jim McDaid, the Donegal TD who is refusing to give up his ministerial pension. He attended only twice during the first nine days covered." 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7114114.ece</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jules<br />
It looks like the whole Dail are trying to reduce their carbon footprint:<br />
&#8220;Just 17 of the country’s 134 TDs turned up for work in the Dail every day in the two weeks after the introduction of a “clocking-in” system on March 1. </p>
<p>The TDs with the worst attendance records in that period included Willie O’Dea, the former defence minister, who did not visit Leinster House at all, and Jim McDaid, the Donegal TD who is refusing to give up his ministerial pension. He attended only twice during the first nine days covered.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7114114.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7114114.ece</a></p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Vandt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48856</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Vandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 23:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48856</guid>
		<description>@Jules
Give the Green Party credit for one thing. By refusing to hold 3 by-elections, even for a seat that has been vacant for a year in Donegal SW, they have managed to set an example in carbon emission reduction. I am afraid that with Donegal being so far in commuting (and therefore polluting) distance from Dublin the by-election will probably never be held.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jules<br />
Give the Green Party credit for one thing. By refusing to hold 3 by-elections, even for a seat that has been vacant for a year in Donegal SW, they have managed to set an example in carbon emission reduction. I am afraid that with Donegal being so far in commuting (and therefore polluting) distance from Dublin the by-election will probably never be held.</p>
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		<title>By: Carrawaystick</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48846</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrawaystick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 22:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48846</guid>
		<description>Is the tax on Carbon or Carbon Dioxide? one of them makes the sparkle in your sparkler and t'other makes the bubbles in your cider, or for green party members it's what takes the caffeine out of your fairtrade organic skinny decaf latte</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the tax on Carbon or Carbon Dioxide? one of them makes the sparkle in your sparkler and t&#8217;other makes the bubbles in your cider, or for green party members it&#8217;s what takes the caffeine out of your fairtrade organic skinny decaf latte</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Tol</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48833</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Tol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 21:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48833</guid>
		<description>@Barry
No. This has not been done for Ireland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Barry<br />
No. This has not been done for Ireland.</p>
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		<title>By: Jules</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48816</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 17:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48816</guid>
		<description>This is of course ridiculous. In Ireland in terms of grennhouse gasses per capita we are now the worse in the world haven overtaken in terms of cost per capita USA last year. That is why we vote a "green party". Where is the greenie jobs they promised us and I would also like one of those grennie cars they promised us</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is of course ridiculous. In Ireland in terms of grennhouse gasses per capita we are now the worse in the world haven overtaken in terms of cost per capita USA last year. That is why we vote a &#8220;green party&#8221;. Where is the greenie jobs they promised us and I would also like one of those grennie cars they promised us</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew McDowell</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48811</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew McDowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 16:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48811</guid>
		<description>Tull

Yes, Simon Coveney and FG called for the introduction of a windfall carbon tax on the powergen sector in March 2008. See Dáil debate on the issue in June 2008 here (having worked out how to do the web links!).

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080604.xml&#38;Node=H14#H14

Andrew</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tull</p>
<p>Yes, Simon Coveney and FG called for the introduction of a windfall carbon tax on the powergen sector in March 2008. See Dáil debate on the issue in June 2008 here (having worked out how to do the web links!).</p>
<p><a href="http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080604.xml&amp;Node=H14#H14" rel="nofollow">http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080604.xml&amp;Node=H14#H14</a></p>
<p>Andrew</p>
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		<title>By: tull mcadoo</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48801</link>
		<dc:creator>tull mcadoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 15:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48801</guid>
		<description>Has Simon Coveney not been banging on about this for the last two years?
I seem to recall Clever Eamonn telling him he was incorrect in that superior tone that only he can manage. Ah well, another u turn by the Greens?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has Simon Coveney not been banging on about this for the last two years?<br />
I seem to recall Clever Eamonn telling him he was incorrect in that superior tone that only he can manage. Ah well, another u turn by the Greens?</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48794</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 15:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48794</guid>
		<description>2012 futures averaged 23.99 in 2007, 25.75 in 2008, and 15.29 in 2009 and so far 14.63 in 2010.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2012 futures averaged 23.99 in 2007, 25.75 in 2008, and 15.29 in 2009 and so far 14.63 in 2010.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48786</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 15:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48786</guid>
		<description>EUA prices in 2008 about €22/tCO2 and 2009 about €15/tCO2.  

Also, using the CITL data on www.sandbag.org.uk it appears that ESB (as a group) was a permit buyer in 2008, so unless they got to their verified emissions levels for 2008 through heroic emissions reductions (unlikely) then their only chance to monetize the grandfathered allocation is by passing through the opportunity cost.  

@Richard
I know Sijm, Neuhoff and Chen (2006) examined the pass through rates for Germany and Netherlands power generators, but has a similar study been done in Ireland upon which to base the opportunity cost pass through claim?   Just because they (power generators) were/are allowed to do it, does that mean it actually happened?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EUA prices in 2008 about €22/tCO2 and 2009 about €15/tCO2.  </p>
<p>Also, using the CITL data on <a href="http://www.sandbag.org.uk" rel="nofollow">http://www.sandbag.org.uk</a> it appears that ESB (as a group) was a permit buyer in 2008, so unless they got to their verified emissions levels for 2008 through heroic emissions reductions (unlikely) then their only chance to monetize the grandfathered allocation is by passing through the opportunity cost.  </p>
<p>@Richard<br />
I know Sijm, Neuhoff and Chen (2006) examined the pass through rates for Germany and Netherlands power generators, but has a similar study been done in Ireland upon which to base the opportunity cost pass through claim?   Just because they (power generators) were/are allowed to do it, does that mean it actually happened?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Tol</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48767</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Tol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 13:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48767</guid>
		<description>@Geckko
At the margin, power generators face a cost (buying a permit) or an opportunity cost (not selling a permit). Therefore, the regulator allows them to charge the permit price to their clients.

The gift of permits is a capital subsidy which is not considered in the regulated price of electricity.

The price at issue (January 1st, 2010) was about €10/tCO2. I can't recall the prices in 2009 and 2008.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Geckko<br />
At the margin, power generators face a cost (buying a permit) or an opportunity cost (not selling a permit). Therefore, the regulator allows them to charge the permit price to their clients.</p>
<p>The gift of permits is a capital subsidy which is not considered in the regulated price of electricity.</p>
<p>The price at issue (January 1st, 2010) was about €10/tCO2. I can&#8217;t recall the prices in 2009 and 2008.</p>
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		<title>By: Geckko</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48758</link>
		<dc:creator>Geckko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 13:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48758</guid>
		<description>Well, this quote just strikes me as compeltely bizarre:

"Generators have been able to earn a monetary return on these credits, earning excess “windfall” profits at the expense of consumers. "

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/energy-minister-to-introduce-carbon-windfall-levy-456436.html#ixzz0n3m11wJf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this quote just strikes me as compeltely bizarre:</p>
<p>&#8220;Generators have been able to earn a monetary return on these credits, earning excess “windfall” profits at the expense of consumers. &#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/energy-minister-to-introduce-carbon-windfall-levy-456436.html#ixzz0n3m11wJf" rel="nofollow">http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/energy-minister-to-introduce-carbon-windfall-levy-456436.html#ixzz0n3m11wJf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Geckko</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48754</link>
		<dc:creator>Geckko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 12:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48754</guid>
		<description>@ Richard

I was being a little too opaque. What was the price at issue? And how does a capital loss (form original grant of economic rights until today) translate into a "windfall profit"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Richard</p>
<p>I was being a little too opaque. What was the price at issue? And how does a capital loss (form original grant of economic rights until today) translate into a &#8220;windfall profit&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Tol</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48751</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Tol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 12:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48751</guid>
		<description>@Geckko
The permit price is €15.97/tCO2 at the moment.

@JeromeK
The French carbon tax was thrown out by the constitutional court because of unfair discrimination between large and small companies within France. The government then tried to spin the story as if it was their decision for the sake of international competition. Apparently, there is at least one person who believed them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Geckko<br />
The permit price is €15.97/tCO2 at the moment.</p>
<p>@JeromeK<br />
The French carbon tax was thrown out by the constitutional court because of unfair discrimination between large and small companies within France. The government then tried to spin the story as if it was their decision for the sake of international competition. Apparently, there is at least one person who believed them.</p>
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		<title>By: Geckko</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48745</link>
		<dc:creator>Geckko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 12:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48745</guid>
		<description>And the current market value of this permits is...?

hmmmm.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the current market value of this permits is&#8230;?</p>
<p>hmmmm&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: JeromeK</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/05/05/a-carbon-windfall-levy/#comment-48744</link>
		<dc:creator>JeromeK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 12:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=6571#comment-48744</guid>
		<description>Richard

And where do you think the electricity generators will get the money to pay the windfall? From their pension funds or their customers?

On balance, I disagree with the Carbon tax, as it is (yet) another tax on enterprise dreamed up by the bureaucrats. On a macro level it just makes us even less competitive against developing countries who are indifferent to threat of AGW. On a micro level it is just another cost to consumers (and taxpayers). In essence it is a regional guilt tax that makes us poorer.

But while the French government have long-fingered it, ("the government said its energy tax was being postponed indefinitely in order not to "damage the competitiveness of French companies") our green crusaders obviously believe that our economy is in better shape to cope.

I hope they are right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard</p>
<p>And where do you think the electricity generators will get the money to pay the windfall? From their pension funds or their customers?</p>
<p>On balance, I disagree with the Carbon tax, as it is (yet) another tax on enterprise dreamed up by the bureaucrats. On a macro level it just makes us even less competitive against developing countries who are indifferent to threat of AGW. On a micro level it is just another cost to consumers (and taxpayers). In essence it is a regional guilt tax that makes us poorer.</p>
<p>But while the French government have long-fingered it, (&#8221;the government said its energy tax was being postponed indefinitely in order not to &#8220;damage the competitiveness of French companies&#8221;) our green crusaders obviously believe that our economy is in better shape to cope.</p>
<p>I hope they are right.</p>
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