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	<title>Comments on: Commercial sensitivity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 05:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Paul Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-230528</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-230528</guid>
		<description>@Barry T,

Many thanks.  I'm focusing on the asset valuation, capital charges etc, a la the CER (or soon to be CEWR).  The number crunching is taking a bit longer than I anticipated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Barry T,</p>
<p>Many thanks.  I&#8217;m focusing on the asset valuation, capital charges etc, a la the CER (or soon to be CEWR).  The number crunching is taking a bit longer than I anticipated.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Barry T</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-230500</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-230500</guid>
		<description>Try this (you will need Dropbox)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13526824/Water%20Utility%20Pro-Forma%20Accounts%20v2_0.xls

I am sure that there are mistakes but that it why it is a proforma for discussion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try this (you will need Dropbox)</p>
<p><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13526824/Water%20Utility%20Pro-Forma%20Accounts%20v2_0.xls" rel="nofollow">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13526824/Water%20Utility%20Pro-Forma%20Accounts%20v2_0.xls</a></p>
<p>I am sure that there are mistakes but that it why it is a proforma for discussion!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-230486</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-230486</guid>
		<description>@Barry T,

Looks interesting.  Can you post it as a spreadsheet.  I've extracted the very limited data from the PwC report and I'm having a go at the regulatory value as per the CER - and then the right way!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Barry T,</p>
<p>Looks interesting.  Can you post it as a spreadsheet.  I&#8217;ve extracted the very limited data from the PwC report and I&#8217;m having a go at the regulatory value as per the CER - and then the right way!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Barry T</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-230427</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-230427</guid>
		<description>Note IT editorial today.

I have pulled together a proforma for discussion (one i had prepared earlier for something else) and posted here:
  
http://www.slideshare.net/BTSKeogh/water-utility-pro-forma-accounts?from=share_email

The answer came out at €616 per average household.

Question I had is how are the 11BN of assets transferred (and associated liabilities)? And how is the regulatory capital value first established?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note IT editorial today.</p>
<p>I have pulled together a proforma for discussion (one i had prepared earlier for something else) and posted here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.slideshare.net/BTSKeogh/water-utility-pro-forma-accounts?from=share_email" rel="nofollow">http://www.slideshare.net/BTSKeogh/water-utility-pro-forma-accounts?from=share_email</a></p>
<p>The answer came out at €616 per average household.</p>
<p>Question I had is how are the 11BN of assets transferred (and associated liabilities)? And how is the regulatory capital value first established?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229697</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229697</guid>
		<description>@Brian Wood Snr.,

Most of the report is 'management consultant speak' which is fine given that the main tasks of the asssignment were to to justify a decision already made and to outline an impementation strategy.  However, the ToR also required an assessment of:
"funding requirements of a new company, including the scope for accessing private finance, valuation of existing water services infrastructure and any further options of relevance to revenue generation."

It is this high level assessment which the DECLG refuses to publish and what is presented on pp115 and 116 provide absolutely nothing of any substance to allow an interested citizen to form a view on these issues.  In the absence of this assessment the public consultation process is effectively null and void.  Citizens, once again, are being asked to buy a pig in a poke.  It's the usual "trust us, we'll do right by you on this".  Voters hsould have learned from bitter expereince that this is just not good enough.

The message to government should be that we're prepared to trust it, but that we need to verify what they are asserting.  They are obliged to publish this high-level financial assessment and have no grounds for refusing to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brian Wood Snr.,</p>
<p>Most of the report is &#8216;management consultant speak&#8217; which is fine given that the main tasks of the asssignment were to to justify a decision already made and to outline an impementation strategy.  However, the ToR also required an assessment of:<br />
&#8220;funding requirements of a new company, including the scope for accessing private finance, valuation of existing water services infrastructure and any further options of relevance to revenue generation.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is this high level assessment which the DECLG refuses to publish and what is presented on pp115 and 116 provide absolutely nothing of any substance to allow an interested citizen to form a view on these issues.  In the absence of this assessment the public consultation process is effectively null and void.  Citizens, once again, are being asked to buy a pig in a poke.  It&#8217;s the usual &#8220;trust us, we&#8217;ll do right by you on this&#8221;.  Voters hsould have learned from bitter expereince that this is just not good enough.</p>
<p>The message to government should be that we&#8217;re prepared to trust it, but that we need to verify what they are asserting.  They are obliged to publish this high-level financial assessment and have no grounds for refusing to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: AntoinB</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229631</link>
		<dc:creator>AntoinB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 16:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229631</guid>
		<description>Every input to the Oireachtas Committee on Water by professional bodies was against the introduction of water metering at this stage. Water costs are about 70% for the pipe network and 30% for the provision of water itself, with most of this 30% being capital. So saving water doesn't save costs  - it merely reallocates costs to others. In electricity, 35% of the costs are the networks and the remainder for the fuel used to generate electricity, so saving electricity actually reduces fuel costs and is worthwhile.

PWC did not look at the justification for Metering because this was excluded in the Terms of Reference, but they did cover themselves by saying it would be very costly and complex ' a brave decision Minister'!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every input to the Oireachtas Committee on Water by professional bodies was against the introduction of water metering at this stage. Water costs are about 70% for the pipe network and 30% for the provision of water itself, with most of this 30% being capital. So saving water doesn&#8217;t save costs  - it merely reallocates costs to others. In electricity, 35% of the costs are the networks and the remainder for the fuel used to generate electricity, so saving electricity actually reduces fuel costs and is worthwhile.</p>
<p>PWC did not look at the justification for Metering because this was excluded in the Terms of Reference, but they did cover themselves by saying it would be very costly and complex &#8216; a brave decision Minister&#8217;!</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Woods Snr</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229601</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Woods Snr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229601</guid>
		<description>@PH:  Note the web page.  Have printed the report.

What am I to look for in this report?  How should I frame a meaningful critique?  ie: are there specific areas that I should concentrate on?

Thanks,

B</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@PH:  Note the web page.  Have printed the report.</p>
<p>What am I to look for in this report?  How should I frame a meaningful critique?  ie: are there specific areas that I should concentrate on?</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>B</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229590</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229590</guid>
		<description>@vinny,

Details here:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterSectorReform/

They have dug in their heels, but people are entitled to some indication of the future level of charges and how they will be calculated.  The objective is to get this buried in the CER (or the CEWR as it will become) as quickly as possible.  There could easily be a difference of €100/year/household  in the avergae charge depending on the approach used to finance investment.  On the basis of the abysmally small amount of data presented in the PwC report - and other bits and pieces - plus some heroic assumptions, I'm having a go at estimating the projected revenue requirements under different financing options.

it will be easily dismissed by the official players because of the assumptions I'll be forced to use to plug the daps in the data and information available.

It's the usual Kafkaesque Catch 22 with 'Official Ireland'.

Official Ireland: "Mr. Hunt, your analysis is flawed, it's based on inaccurate data and faulty assumptions.  The results are simply wrong and warrant no futher consideration."
Me: "Please publish the high-level analysis you conducted so that I can develop my analysis on agreed data and assumptions."
OI: "The high level assessment includes aspects that are considered commercially sensitive.  If this were published it could prejudice the future competitive position of Irish Water."
Me: This is balderdash.  Irish Water will be a monopoly in terms of supply, a monopsony in terms of demand for external materials and services and a fully regulated public utility offering copper-bottomed assurances to prospective providers of finance.  There is no competitive position anywhere to be prejudiced."
OI: We have made a decision on this matter and we will not review this decision.

All of this might seem small beer compared to the amounts being paid on these darned Anglo promissory notes, but this is only one molehill.  And as John FitzGerald of the ESRI observed in another context, many molehills make a mountain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@vinny,</p>
<p>Details here:<br />
<a href="http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterSectorReform/" rel="nofollow">http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterSectorReform/</a></p>
<p>They have dug in their heels, but people are entitled to some indication of the future level of charges and how they will be calculated.  The objective is to get this buried in the CER (or the CEWR as it will become) as quickly as possible.  There could easily be a difference of €100/year/household  in the avergae charge depending on the approach used to finance investment.  On the basis of the abysmally small amount of data presented in the PwC report - and other bits and pieces - plus some heroic assumptions, I&#8217;m having a go at estimating the projected revenue requirements under different financing options.</p>
<p>it will be easily dismissed by the official players because of the assumptions I&#8217;ll be forced to use to plug the daps in the data and information available.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the usual Kafkaesque Catch 22 with &#8216;Official Ireland&#8217;.</p>
<p>Official Ireland: &#8220;Mr. Hunt, your analysis is flawed, it&#8217;s based on inaccurate data and faulty assumptions.  The results are simply wrong and warrant no futher consideration.&#8221;<br />
Me: &#8220;Please publish the high-level analysis you conducted so that I can develop my analysis on agreed data and assumptions.&#8221;<br />
OI: &#8220;The high level assessment includes aspects that are considered commercially sensitive.  If this were published it could prejudice the future competitive position of Irish Water.&#8221;<br />
Me: This is balderdash.  Irish Water will be a monopoly in terms of supply, a monopsony in terms of demand for external materials and services and a fully regulated public utility offering copper-bottomed assurances to prospective providers of finance.  There is no competitive position anywhere to be prejudiced.&#8221;<br />
OI: We have made a decision on this matter and we will not review this decision.</p>
<p>All of this might seem small beer compared to the amounts being paid on these darned Anglo promissory notes, but this is only one molehill.  And as John FitzGerald of the ESRI observed in another context, many molehills make a mountain.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Woods Snr</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229461</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Woods Snr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229461</guid>
		<description>@PH:  Shades of Hughie Green's Clapometer!  A Driftometer!  

B</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@PH:  Shades of Hughie Green&#8217;s Clapometer!  A Driftometer!  </p>
<p>B</p>
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		<title>By: vinny</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229427</link>
		<dc:creator>vinny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229427</guid>
		<description>@ Paul Hunt

Any particular email address for DECLG we should direct our request to?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Paul Hunt</p>
<p>Any particular email address for DECLG we should direct our request to?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229416</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229416</guid>
		<description>It would be great if we could have a meter on threads to measure how much they drift off-topic!

I'd be a lot happier if ye were all badgering the DECLG to release the high-level assessment performed by PwC so that informed submissions might be made in this so-called public consultation before the deadline of 24 Feb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be great if we could have a meter on threads to measure how much they drift off-topic!</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be a lot happier if ye were all badgering the DECLG to release the high-level assessment performed by PwC so that informed submissions might be made in this so-called public consultation before the deadline of 24 Feb.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Woods Snr</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229386</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Woods Snr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229386</guid>
		<description>@BigEnd:  Now with a moniker like that ... ...

Yeah, liquids don't 'burn' its their vapours that are flammable.  The Flash Point is the critical attribute wrt flammability.  Air-fuel mix is v-important.  Get it right and you get a goodly BOOM!.  Most vapours 'creep'.  Very trecherous.

I had a nasty experience with petrol vapour.  Accidental spillage.  250 ml approx.  Warm day.  I immediately retired to what I considered to be a same distance - 12 m.  Bad decision.  The vapour explosion gave me a flash burn and singed my eyebrows!   You mess with volatile liquids at you peril.  Liquiduified gas, rapidly warming up, is a real baddy.  Flixboro!

Brian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BigEnd:  Now with a moniker like that &#8230; &#8230;</p>
<p>Yeah, liquids don&#8217;t &#8216;burn&#8217; its their vapours that are flammable.  The Flash Point is the critical attribute wrt flammability.  Air-fuel mix is v-important.  Get it right and you get a goodly BOOM!.  Most vapours &#8216;creep&#8217;.  Very trecherous.</p>
<p>I had a nasty experience with petrol vapour.  Accidental spillage.  250 ml approx.  Warm day.  I immediately retired to what I considered to be a same distance - 12 m.  Bad decision.  The vapour explosion gave me a flash burn and singed my eyebrows!   You mess with volatile liquids at you peril.  Liquiduified gas, rapidly warming up, is a real baddy.  Flixboro!</p>
<p>Brian</p>
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		<title>By: BigEnd</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229371</link>
		<dc:creator>BigEnd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229371</guid>
		<description>Interestingly in the wiki article it says that "In its liquid state, LNG is not explosive and can not burn" but it also gives a history of accidents involving LNG.

Some interesting bits in there also on pricing and relativity to oil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly in the wiki article it says that &#8220;In its liquid state, LNG is not explosive and can not burn&#8221; but it also gives a history of accidents involving LNG.</p>
<p>Some interesting bits in there also on pricing and relativity to oil.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Woods Snr</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229365</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Woods Snr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229365</guid>
		<description>@ BigEnd:  Thanks for that.  Hello!, again.  Best wishes for New Year, and all!

That little 'firecracker' incident in Whiddy?  Methinks that was NG residues.  Failures are - very fortunately, few.  But increased use brings increased risk.  And that stuff is sure hazardous!  Rosaries all 'round.

Brian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ BigEnd:  Thanks for that.  Hello!, again.  Best wishes for New Year, and all!</p>
<p>That little &#8216;firecracker&#8217; incident in Whiddy?  Methinks that was NG residues.  Failures are - very fortunately, few.  But increased use brings increased risk.  And that stuff is sure hazardous!  Rosaries all &#8217;round.</p>
<p>Brian.</p>
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		<title>By: BigEnd</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229350</link>
		<dc:creator>BigEnd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229350</guid>
		<description>LNG alla wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LNG alla wiki</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Woods Snr</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229330</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Woods Snr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229330</guid>
		<description>@YoB:  Thanks for that. 

 NG is - methane?  But NG could also refer to ethane, propane and butanes.  Those these latter three (aka: liquid petroleum gas, LPG) are easily liquified by lowish pressure.  Methane is an entirely different animal (chemical one).  

Morgan Downey (Oil 101: p 170-179) should be consulted.  Methane is the lowest energy density member of the family (above).  Excellent fuel.  But a nasty chemical to handle, store and transport.  NG production is not seasonal (well, approx), but usage is.  Hence storage is a major economic matter.  Every sentence about NG transport and storage contains the word 'expensive'.  You can take this to mean lots of money and energy costs.

Thanks again,

Brian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@YoB:  Thanks for that. </p>
<p> NG is - methane?  But NG could also refer to ethane, propane and butanes.  Those these latter three (aka: liquid petroleum gas, LPG) are easily liquified by lowish pressure.  Methane is an entirely different animal (chemical one).  </p>
<p>Morgan Downey (Oil 101: p 170-179) should be consulted.  Methane is the lowest energy density member of the family (above).  Excellent fuel.  But a nasty chemical to handle, store and transport.  NG production is not seasonal (well, approx), but usage is.  Hence storage is a major economic matter.  Every sentence about NG transport and storage contains the word &#8216;expensive&#8217;.  You can take this to mean lots of money and energy costs.</p>
<p>Thanks again,</p>
<p>Brian</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229310</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229310</guid>
		<description>@PaddyJoe,

I'm not denying that the proposed policy on meters and the costs of these meters (including installation, maintenance, interogation, assembly and precessing of data, issuing of bills, etc.) are not important, but the primary focus should be on securing efficient operation and on efficient financing of investment in these long-lived, specific assets.  Metering imposes another layer of costs on top of this.

We should always beware when government is encouraging a public fixation on specific issues.  They have been extremely successful in directing public attention to the structure of water charges and meters.  This has allowed them to evade any public consideration of the efficient provision of existing services and the efficient financing of what will be a huge programme of investment.  Indeed, they have refused, and continue to refuse, to publish the high level assessment conducted for them by PwC - even though a period for public submissions on its proposals is open until 24 Feb.

And as for meters, this is being covered with the sanctifying mantle of jobs, jobs, jobs.  There will be no consideration of the costs the installation and operation of these meters will impose on households; the only metric that will be considered is the number of jobs that will be created.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@PaddyJoe,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not denying that the proposed policy on meters and the costs of these meters (including installation, maintenance, interogation, assembly and precessing of data, issuing of bills, etc.) are not important, but the primary focus should be on securing efficient operation and on efficient financing of investment in these long-lived, specific assets.  Metering imposes another layer of costs on top of this.</p>
<p>We should always beware when government is encouraging a public fixation on specific issues.  They have been extremely successful in directing public attention to the structure of water charges and meters.  This has allowed them to evade any public consideration of the efficient provision of existing services and the efficient financing of what will be a huge programme of investment.  Indeed, they have refused, and continue to refuse, to publish the high level assessment conducted for them by PwC - even though a period for public submissions on its proposals is open until 24 Feb.</p>
<p>And as for meters, this is being covered with the sanctifying mantle of jobs, jobs, jobs.  There will be no consideration of the costs the installation and operation of these meters will impose on households; the only metric that will be considered is the number of jobs that will be created.</p>
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		<title>By: Yields or Bust</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229285</link>
		<dc:creator>Yields or Bust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229285</guid>
		<description>@BW

My understanding (open to correction) is that LNG is not transported in a pressureised container.

re the greed etc - yeep totally agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BW</p>
<p>My understanding (open to correction) is that LNG is not transported in a pressureised container.</p>
<p>re the greed etc - yeep totally agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Woods Snr</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229274</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Woods Snr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229274</guid>
		<description>@YoB:  "Despite what one may believe the transpotation of LNG or liquiified natural gas is actually a relatively safe pastime."

Yes indeed, but life being what it is, and the transport being a bit 'high' in the pressure area and a bit 'low' in the temperature area.   Not much room for mistakes or failure.  There will be one.  Might change folks ideas about NG.  Know what a BLEVE is?  What it will do?

Hope your continuously right.

Re: Wrt Fracking; is there no end to greed, stupidity and arrogance?

Thanks for hat-tip.

Brian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@YoB:  &#8220;Despite what one may believe the transpotation of LNG or liquiified natural gas is actually a relatively safe pastime.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes indeed, but life being what it is, and the transport being a bit &#8216;high&#8217; in the pressure area and a bit &#8216;low&#8217; in the temperature area.   Not much room for mistakes or failure.  There will be one.  Might change folks ideas about NG.  Know what a BLEVE is?  What it will do?</p>
<p>Hope your continuously right.</p>
<p>Re: Wrt Fracking; is there no end to greed, stupidity and arrogance?</p>
<p>Thanks for hat-tip.</p>
<p>Brian</p>
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		<title>By: PaddyJoe</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229241</link>
		<dc:creator>PaddyJoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229241</guid>
		<description>@Paul Hunt
I haven't read through all the posts above carefully so I may have missed some important points. 
However, I just want to note that the Irish Sunday Mail of 8/1/2012 claimed to have sight of a report entitled 'Delivering Ireland's Water Services for the 21st Century ' compiled by the Irish Academy of Engineering, Engineering Ireland and representatives from the Office of Public Works and Dublin City Council. 
It seems this report formed the basis of the subsequent PWC report. 
It stated that the installation of water meters in households throughout the country would cost 1 billion euro rather than the 500m euro figure that the government estimates. 
Thread here on pw.org:
http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=217865</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Paul Hunt<br />
I haven&#8217;t read through all the posts above carefully so I may have missed some important points.<br />
However, I just want to note that the Irish Sunday Mail of 8/1/2012 claimed to have sight of a report entitled &#8216;Delivering Ireland&#8217;s Water Services for the 21st Century &#8216; compiled by the Irish Academy of Engineering, Engineering Ireland and representatives from the Office of Public Works and Dublin City Council.<br />
It seems this report formed the basis of the subsequent PWC report.<br />
It stated that the installation of water meters in households throughout the country would cost 1 billion euro rather than the 500m euro figure that the government estimates.<br />
Thread here on pw.org:<br />
<a href="http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=217865" rel="nofollow">http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?p=217865</a></p>
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		<title>By: Carawaystick</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229223</link>
		<dc:creator>Carawaystick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229223</guid>
		<description>The big issue I'd have with the plan are the statements about current public sector staff transferring to IW

If a proper arm's length company was setting up then, there'd be an open recruiting to IW and redundancies from the present (waste) water services sections of local authorities; but like the corpo in Dublin didn't make any of their staff from bin collection redundant, I can't see this happening.

At least there's no plans (yet0 to give 15% to the staff there.

There seems to be a big amalgamation of capital and current costs of water services provision, in the govt. docs; I would have thought planning fees were in place to cover these.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The big issue I&#8217;d have with the plan are the statements about current public sector staff transferring to IW</p>
<p>If a proper arm&#8217;s length company was setting up then, there&#8217;d be an open recruiting to IW and redundancies from the present (waste) water services sections of local authorities; but like the corpo in Dublin didn&#8217;t make any of their staff from bin collection redundant, I can&#8217;t see this happening.</p>
<p>At least there&#8217;s no plans (yet0 to give 15% to the staff there.</p>
<p>There seems to be a big amalgamation of capital and current costs of water services provision, in the govt. docs; I would have thought planning fees were in place to cover these.</p>
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		<title>By: Yields or Bust</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229209</link>
		<dc:creator>Yields or Bust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229209</guid>
		<description>@BW

Leitrim and fracking is coming your way.


http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2012/01/04/4008362-foi-shows-fracking-zone-could-treble/

Despite what one may believe the transpotation of LNG or liquiified natural gas is actually a relatively safe pastime.

The problem is that European Gas is very expensive because its linked to oil whereas US Gas is not a product that's exported outside the US and we get this very odd situation with two very different prices for exactly the same product on either side of the Atlantic and guess what the Russians make out like bandits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BW</p>
<p>Leitrim and fracking is coming your way.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2012/01/04/4008362-foi-shows-fracking-zone-could-treble/" rel="nofollow">http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2012/01/04/4008362-foi-shows-fracking-zone-could-treble/</a></p>
<p>Despite what one may believe the transpotation of LNG or liquiified natural gas is actually a relatively safe pastime.</p>
<p>The problem is that European Gas is very expensive because its linked to oil whereas US Gas is not a product that&#8217;s exported outside the US and we get this very odd situation with two very different prices for exactly the same product on either side of the Atlantic and guess what the Russians make out like bandits.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Galton</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229147</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Galton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229147</guid>
		<description>Go easy on PwC -- they did such a good job reviewing the assets of de banx.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go easy on PwC &#8212; they did such a good job reviewing the assets of de banx.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Woods Snr</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229142</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Woods Snr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229142</guid>
		<description>@YoB:  Fracking in Leitrim?  Seriously?  That's utterly insane.  That's the head of Shannon basin.  What manner of utter fools would allow this.  We use the gas - its gone!  What's left?  A completely shattered and heavily polluted acquifer.  John Bryan might just be interested if he figures out that a lot of productive land will be rendered sterile.  The EU will compo the farmers for that?  As Bailey said to Gogarty, "They will like f**c!"

NG is cheap - for now.  NG is used to generate electricity.  F**k all use for aviation and long-haul road transport.  Reprise Albert Bartlett and his exponentials.  Use increases fast (low price and availability).  Not long before price follows.  Very steep decline rates for NG production.  Also, and this is the kicker.  NG is a very tricky chemical to handle in bulk: very energy intensive.  

Brian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@YoB:  Fracking in Leitrim?  Seriously?  That&#8217;s utterly insane.  That&#8217;s the head of Shannon basin.  What manner of utter fools would allow this.  We use the gas - its gone!  What&#8217;s left?  A completely shattered and heavily polluted acquifer.  John Bryan might just be interested if he figures out that a lot of productive land will be rendered sterile.  The EU will compo the farmers for that?  As Bailey said to Gogarty, &#8220;They will like f**c!&#8221;</p>
<p>NG is cheap - for now.  NG is used to generate electricity.  F**k all use for aviation and long-haul road transport.  Reprise Albert Bartlett and his exponentials.  Use increases fast (low price and availability).  Not long before price follows.  Very steep decline rates for NG production.  Also, and this is the kicker.  NG is a very tricky chemical to handle in bulk: very energy intensive.  </p>
<p>Brian</p>
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		<title>By: The Dork of Cork</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229127</link>
		<dc:creator>The Dork of Cork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229127</guid>
		<description>@Yields
Yeah well I have to admit 10 years was a guess on my part - but from what heard fracking is all wham bam thank you Maam.
Its all sounds very desperate to me , this trollop hunting - its cheaper then getting married but either way you are going to end up poorer in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Yields<br />
Yeah well I have to admit 10 years was a guess on my part - but from what heard fracking is all wham bam thank you Maam.<br />
Its all sounds very desperate to me , this trollop hunting - its cheaper then getting married but either way you are going to end up poorer in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: The Dork of Cork</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229124</link>
		<dc:creator>The Dork of Cork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229124</guid>
		<description>Sorry the bottom should read Jan - Oct 2011.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry the bottom should read Jan - Oct 2011.</p>
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		<title>By: Yields or Bust</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229123</link>
		<dc:creator>Yields or Bust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229123</guid>
		<description>@Dork

You are correct but I suspect that the technology (its coming to Leitrim for instance) may have a more profound influence than you potentially give credit for. The 10 year window looks at odds with what the market is pricing.

Take for instance some of the leveraged gas commodity funds which were trading north of $80 in the early part of 2008 - these same funds are now priced at less than 10c (not a mis print) that's a loss of 99.9%. Whilst I respect its extremely difficult to predict future demand and supply in anything a loss of 99% for a commodity based fund which you suggest has a 10 year window of opportunity does not tally. 

I believe the market is suggesting the shale gas technology travels and where that journey ends could more than interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dork</p>
<p>You are correct but I suspect that the technology (its coming to Leitrim for instance) may have a more profound influence than you potentially give credit for. The 10 year window looks at odds with what the market is pricing.</p>
<p>Take for instance some of the leveraged gas commodity funds which were trading north of $80 in the early part of 2008 - these same funds are now priced at less than 10c (not a mis print) that&#8217;s a loss of 99.9%. Whilst I respect its extremely difficult to predict future demand and supply in anything a loss of 99% for a commodity based fund which you suggest has a 10 year window of opportunity does not tally. </p>
<p>I believe the market is suggesting the shale gas technology travels and where that journey ends could more than interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: The Dork of Cork</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229122</link>
		<dc:creator>The Dork of Cork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229122</guid>
		<description>If you look at the most recent oil / NG imports data........

Jan - Oct 2010 :   petroluem imports : 3502 million Euro (exports 711)
                          NG                    : 859   million Euro  (not significant)    

Jan - Oct 2010 :  petroleum imports : 4379 million Euro (exports 1034) 
                            NG                 : 1100 million Euro(not significant)

Maybe the mild Winter may help the situation though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you look at the most recent oil / NG imports data&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p>Jan - Oct 2010 :   petroluem imports : 3502 million Euro (exports 711)<br />
                          NG                    : 859   million Euro  (not significant)    </p>
<p>Jan - Oct 2010 :  petroleum imports : 4379 million Euro (exports 1034)<br />
                            NG                 : 1100 million Euro(not significant)</p>
<p>Maybe the mild Winter may help the situation though.</p>
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		<title>By: The Dork of Cork</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229119</link>
		<dc:creator>The Dork of Cork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229119</guid>
		<description>Sorry - its not a global gas glut yet , just American in the main.

Our NG imports priced in Euro are set to reach record levels again this year.

Just saying like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry - its not a global gas glut yet , just American in the main.</p>
<p>Our NG imports priced in Euro are set to reach record levels again this year.</p>
<p>Just saying like.</p>
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		<title>By: The Dork of Cork</title>
		<link>http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/19/commercial-sensitivity/#comment-229117</link>
		<dc:creator>The Dork of Cork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irisheconomy.ie/?p=12641#comment-229117</guid>
		<description>@Yields
Yes I am aware of the global gas glut - this is similar in some ways to the global oil glut of the 80s.
Because the global banking system is leveraged up to it tits this stored energy unfortunetly must always flow into further unsustainable day to day consumption &#38; consumption of consumer durables.

It will lead to another malinvestment episode &#38; collapse just as night follows day.
However they might get 10 years out of it this, which is one of the reasons why I am turning into a short run $ bull.
Its all very sad though.
Even a pre Basel 8 to 1 money to credit leverage ratio would prevent the worst of the forthcoming malinvestment.
Investing this tempory energy surplus into monetory batteries otherwise known as fission reactors via money rather then credit investment would be the smart thing to do.
But I guess people will never learn - the world is full of headbangers who like the pain of it all or maybe they get short term pain relief from all those credit tablets they keep swallowing.
Still I blame the drug dealers - the addicts are just stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Yields<br />
Yes I am aware of the global gas glut - this is similar in some ways to the global oil glut of the 80s.<br />
Because the global banking system is leveraged up to it tits this stored energy unfortunetly must always flow into further unsustainable day to day consumption &amp; consumption of consumer durables.</p>
<p>It will lead to another malinvestment episode &amp; collapse just as night follows day.<br />
However they might get 10 years out of it this, which is one of the reasons why I am turning into a short run $ bull.<br />
Its all very sad though.<br />
Even a pre Basel 8 to 1 money to credit leverage ratio would prevent the worst of the forthcoming malinvestment.<br />
Investing this tempory energy surplus into monetory batteries otherwise known as fission reactors via money rather then credit investment would be the smart thing to do.<br />
But I guess people will never learn - the world is full of headbangers who like the pain of it all or maybe they get short term pain relief from all those credit tablets they keep swallowing.<br />
Still I blame the drug dealers - the addicts are just stupid.</p>
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