Shifting attitudes to immigration

Most interesting. May I ask what made you form a link between Xenophobia and “anti gay or lesbian rights”.

This link must have been made in the type of questions which were asked of the subject population.

Why was this link made?

On a second question… Was it correct to use the term “Xenophobia”. Because if the subject population’s fear IS rational and reasonable then can the term “xenophobia” be used?

@ Kevin Denny

‘The Irish National Election Study, a panel survey conducted between 2002 and 2007, indicated that hostility to immigrants was strongly correlated with hostility to travellers,…’

Minor point: Upper_case “T” for Travellers please.

Which group has had more cuts (in percentage terms) than any other group in Irish society in recent years? Travellers [~80%]

Minor proposition: “Z” for Irish Travellers @2002 = “Z” @ 2012.

Hunch: stat sig***

Anyone care to take this on?

@DOD travelers ..so keep on traveling why should the settled community give then jack,how many pay taxes,what’s the criminal conviction/charge ratio viz a viz any other section of society,give it a rest.
Hostility more like common sense.

Main question that should be asked of Irish interviewees: would you allow or be in favour of your daughter or son marrying one of them “foreigners” (and list various countries like Romania, Bulgaria, etc).

Spent 6 months helping a young Bulgarian guy in Dublin highly legally qualified 2.1 LLM from Trinity, 1st in basic BCL degree. Couldn’t get an apprenticeship even though he had also gained entry into Blackhall Place. Huge discrimination….I got him some interviews with contacts of mine only to have him more or less racially abused, etc. sometimes more subtle from the larger law firms. He worked various non-paid apprenticeships to keep his CV going. Terrific guy. Got him into a tier 2 firm eventually.

I met him through his mother who was a waitress in a pub restaurant. She and her husband were working multiple low paid jobs. Great people. Worried about her son and the loans that he had racked up to get through law school.

Kind of immigrants Ireland could do with.

Have to say though that I have little or no time for the less savory elements of Travellers, Romanians, Nigerians, etc…..nor Irish unsavory and criminal types I have to say!

@Sporthog,makes you laugh these economists stating the bleeding obvious with graphs, x and o’s.Its kinda obvious to pretty much ANYONE that someone with liberal sex views will also be open to immigrants,duh!
Why not ask if welfare scroungers were banned as they are in Canada and the US,what would people’s attitudes be.

@ John Foody,

Personally, I would cautious about “presuming” anything.

Condemning “a person” and condemning “an action” are two different things entirely.

It would appear that Mr Denny fails to understand this.

@ Paul W,

You raise some interesting observations of “both sides of the coin” so to speak.

What would you make of Ms Angela Merkel’s comment that “multiculturalism has failed in Germany”?

Is multiculturalism working in the UK? Will multiculturalism work in Ireland?

Depends if the cultures in question are compatible I suppose, and if two cultures are incompatible… then does that make one xenophobic, or just realistic?

@Paul W

“Ireland is generally tolerant of others…as this study says. It’s not a racially apartheid country.”

See Table 1, Column 2. ‘Not racially apartheid’?

Methinks it has its ‘stans’.

Btw, Spanish and Bolivian also in my family, by marriage…Large number of siblings on both sides! All thinks Ireland is socially Utopian relative to many other places. Don’t mention the bloody weather though! and they are less likely to want to discuss property, interest rates and pensions compared to the Irish!

@JG
People (insiders) who need “objective information” to spin Ireland as a Utopia I guess!

Also a breather from property, interest rates , pensions and the economy….!

“successive Eurobarometer polls since the early 2000s suggest that the Irish worry much less about immigration than citizens of neighbouring European economies.”

The graphs certainly would lead one to the conclusion that Irish people are as blase about immigration as they are about emigration. However, in my experience, as an Irish person, meeting other Irish people daily, concerns are anything but benign. Also, maybe the reason other countries worry more about the effects of immigration is their attitudes are informed by many decades of immigration as opposed to emigration.

Am I the only one that suspects that Ireland’s love affair with off loading it’s surplus to requirements natives, on any and every country that will take the orphan’s in, has had an impact on Irish people being able to express their true feelings on government policies that have been responsible for an inward flux of immigration equal to 20% to 25% of out total population. In little more than ten or eleven years, an irreversible ‘experiment’ has been carried out which no other country in Europe has dared to carry out. The official figures of course are way off the mark as anyone that works with immigrants will know.

“Some consistent patterns emerge. Women and rural dwellers were, and are, more hostile to immigration; the educated and the foreign-born less so. ”

Does this imply that women and rural dwellers who are “hostile to immigration” are not among the “educated”? Does it further imply that that because they hold certain attitudes towards immigration, they are less ‘educated’ than those that hold pro immigration attitudes? What a load of skewed, economic and social ‘scientific’ baloney!

If we just look at the building industry. Irish attitudes to immigrants were, ‘we need them to build our apartment complexes’. This quickly changed to, ‘we need you to buy them from us, as there are no other customers’ to mop up the 85,000 units a year that were being built, to a realization, vehemently denied at first, that 30 year mortgages could not be serviced by immigrants who were soon to be unemployed. A further realization then followed, that the country was now bust and was going to pay dearly for it’s economic miracle.

@Paul W,perfect I get in touch,yeah i doubt too many Protestants have joined the “new” SF:)
Their “supporters” have a lot more in common certainly in Dublin,with the national front in the UK.I wonder do they still go hawking that awful rag “An Phoblact” in the bars/pubs in the shadier parts off Dublin.Didn’t strike me as an awfully inclusive bunch…

@PaulW

‘… my own family has a number of different races by marriage, fairly mainstream, French, Italian, Dutch, Japanese.

What definition of ‘race’ is being used here? Or ‘mainstream’?

Also, what’s a ‘lady driver’? And a ‘scumbag’? Unless you’re taking us completely off the ( attitudes to immigration) topic and back to vilification of (Irish?, ‘native’?) bankers, developers and estate agents!

Michael, our definition of xenophobia in the paper is explicitly about being more averse to immigration from other ethnic groups/races than from ones own. One could also perhaps use the word racist. But there is really no perfect word. All one can do is be clear about the definition and the interpretation- which we have endeavoured to be.
In related work with the same data and cited in the paper, I look at homophobia. Again one could quibble with the word in that context but I don’t know a better term.
The point you raise about political correctness is a valid one: surveys like this can be prone to social desirability bias. That is, you may tell the interviewer what you think they want to hear. This may differ across groups. For similar reasons, responses to questions of an intimate nature can depend on the sex of the interviewer.

@ M.H.

Your comment brings us back to the point that I made above about the implications of EU membership which the authors of the paper are either oblivious to or consider not to be relevant.

From my own experience, Irish people are well aware of the fact that EU citizens are free to live and work (and acquire property) anywhere in the EU and, more importantly, that they themselves have a reciprocal right to do so.

If this aspect is ignored e.g. in terms of the questions posed with regard to assessing attitudes, the debate in Ireland simply cannot be related to that actually taking place in a wider European context. It is especially lively in two major countries of the EU, our nearest neighbour and Germany.

Responsible leadership is required in all countries when dealing with the general issue. Merkel is reduced to kicking the issue of “benefit tourism” into a committee, at least until the Bavarian state elections are out of the way.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-s-new-year-s-resolution-fresh-eu-air-1.1643936

As to the deplorable manner in which the issue has been handled by Cameron to date, in an evident attempt to outflank UKIP, the antics of one Keith Vaz have moved even the Telegraph to a position more in line with general opinion in in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10550811/Fear-and-foreboding-are-rarely-a-recipe-for-election-victory.html

@DOCM,what’s with the new PD’s rather weird bunch,how will that realist Lucinda reconcile say Stephen Donnleys,populist and kindergarden views on the real world,assume he left a carrot out for Rudolf:)
http://stephendonnelly.ie/policy/

@DOCM,one of many reasons why I loathe SF is the poisonous and destabilizing impact on “change” in that for a long time they were the only protest option,notwithstanding the fact most off the current leadership should be retired,having gotten a get out of jail card.

@RF
Fair enough. Mainstream for the purposes of this conversation would be other EU or large 1st world country like Japan. The current debate in the UK and Irish context refers to the potential large influx of Romanians and Bulgarians……but in Ireland, there are also other large Eastern European (eg Poles), African and Asian contingent in particular. Plenty of others too of course.

Were the recent objections to the proposed enlarged Jewish museum in Dublin partly racially motivated. For some maybe but the Jewish people have since the 2nd world war in particular, been a feature of racial diversity and tolerance in Ireland. In Cork, when I was growing up the area of Blackrock Cork known as “Jew Town” was a feature as was the election of Goldberg as the first Jewish Lord Mayor of Cork.

Actually, we should sample poll on how much racial diversity there is in the families of bloggers here…?

Female driver if you like. I was brought up to open doors for women….although I am learning that is less acceptable inequality terms to our modern day teenagers!

Scumbag is scumbag. Apply whatever personal definition you like!

MH
Agreed that one can have questions about immigration without being racist – good point. The subject can get awfully PC and distorted. In the US, a certain “reverse” prejudice has developed particularly but not exclusively among black America. So for example when a cashier inadvertently wrong changes (for say minor amount), the “accusation” often arising that the non-Caucasian customer is being somehow victimized. Or in queues, similar can happen. However, the point is that one gets quite extreme examples in what continues to be a very difficult area of human relations (and definition I might add). Differences being equated as racial prejudice.

Have to say though that the Irish tend to get on very well with most in the world…..and we are everywhere! A well known bamboo pub operator in Southern Thailand nicknamed “Paddy the Meath” comes to mind!

@ JG: Things, political-wise in Ireland, are somewhat in a flux. Poorly performing economies have that effect. I suspect that a significant number of Irish voters are now in the ‘For Rent’ sector (core support for traditional parties has declined). Thought I prefer the ‘Te Hoor’ translation. Seems somehow more apt!

Sinn Fein is an ideologically driven, totalitarian, nationalist socialist party (ask of a Sicilian speaker for a fair translation of SF – it comes out near enough as Cosa Nostra). Close to 30% of the Irish voters do not exercise their franchise in parliamentary elections. But significant caution is advised as the Voter Register is badly out-of-date. Very difficult to have confidence in any poll estimates.

The Loverely Lucinda is pitching her message at the arboreal extremities of South, SE and NE Dublin. And possibly at the Tá Sé Mahogany Gas Pipe brigade as well. That’s it. Too diffuse to really matter. If Stephen D has any political sense, he’ll give that lady a very wide berth indeed.

FF will ‘claw back’ – reluctantly, their errant sheep. Labour will be lucky if they have 6 or more deputies. Actually, they deserve extinction á la Clann na Talhman. FG will lose seats. Doing the coalition math after the next parliamentary election will be most interesting. I’d predict two, possibly three, parliamentary elections in as many years (vide: early 1980s) to ‘settle’ matters. That is, the Independents are reduced back to 4% – 5% from the current 17%. And all political bets are off if our economy experiences energy shocks.

The Balkan Republics of our North-East may revert to Mean if the UK economy were to stagnate. God knows what would happen politically if the UK were to re-enter a prolonged recession.

Island dwellers tend to xenophobia. Its the default setting, and goes with the territory, as they say. Being surrounded by water, and all: the available ‘fields’ are few, and fixed.

“As for Irish attitudes, it shouldn’t be surprising that the rapid change from boom to bust left many bewildered and at a time of job scarcity”

From memory the paper measures attitudes towards immigrants from pre and post bust, finding evidence of hostility (much chage? cant remember) in both stages.

“As for the ‘educated’/ or people with education, some presumably would be aware what the politically correct answer would be to some questions.”

No this is an assumption to fit your politics. Show it. Afaicr the paper deals with this – one reason (among many perhaps) is that the more educated are less likely to live among recent immigrants and compete for jobs and resources (schools etc)

“There is a percentage of every population that is racist but people can have questions about immigration without meriting the tag “xenophobia” ”

Of course, but this is a strawman. And there’s no need to paraenthesis xenophobia, it exists. The question is how much is driven by xenophobia. If the economic case for immigration is positive (and in a general sense I think it is, with caveats) and if there’s widespread hostility to immigration (not only from people directly effected with reduced wages etc) then why is that? Its a legitimate question and xenophobia will be *part* of the answer.

“The large influx of immigrants into Britain from former colonies did give rise to problems in traditional communities”

Of course it did, but this statement is a generalsation to the point of nullity. You could swap “large influx of immigrants” with any large social change and the point would remain the same.

“It’s intriguing that black Africans likely head the global rankings as targets of prejudice while as gay rights improve in parts of the world, they’re getting worse in Africa.”

I dont see why this is relevant. *No one* makes the case that a lot of African countries arent hostile to gay rights. But what does this have to do with the topic? Unless your worry is that African immigration will undermine gay rights in Ireland? (I think thats unlikely in any meaningful way)

I disagree with the other RF that we need a ‘debate about’ immigration. Ive seen that ‘debate’ in a number of countries and it’s always nothing short of abysmal. This is a nice short article on the Biritsh debate

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n12/jonathan-portes/an-exercise-in-scapegoating

Of course there are arguments against immigration, and legitimate normative preferences, and from my personal experience Ive seen (most people I know) object to immigration for a number of reasons (from out and out racism, to a more general fear of change to a direct effect immigrants have had on wages so on and so forth)
Its a complicated topic, but should be kept in mind that even if the effects on the receiving country are probably ambiguos to the point of irrelevant, for the person coming its a a huge positive effect (in increased wages, life prospects, opportunities for their children etc – and in most cases for the countries they come from – in remittances, offering incentives for others to get skills, diffusion of political ideas back home, taking the strain of social services etc)

Interesting too was something my Bulgarian mother waitressing, multi-jobbing, etc in Dublin was “We are treated like Romanians….but we are not, we are very different to them…Bulgaria is near to Italy…We are very like the Italians.”

Race “brand”, first impressions, etc……You will remember that Irish everywhere were pissed off by news articles a while back about our wayward, drunken students summer-“working” in San Diego….or the more recent derogatory articles along similar lines in Australia.

Besides the racial aspects, Irish reaction is as much economic as anything else,to protect the “Green Jersey”. No?

@JG
Pondering your SF support in Ireland versus new tolerance of the Irish for foreigners.

In a debate long ago in UCC, Gerry Adams (first time I heard him….not very “audibly attractive” to me I must confess…dubbed by RTE in those days) said that the “struggle” was primarily a socio-economic one. I think that still applies to SF’s positioning in Irish politics today…..they have found a slot on the far left. Fair enough. I think that it isn’t correct anymore to (automatically) equate the current political support with the murderous past of the SF party….things have genuinely (but not perfectly) moved on…..even if many are still trying to put Adams, etc to “the sword”re the past. We don’t forget the past of course, but we need to move on…..If friends in the North can forgive (but not forget), so should we….?

Perhaps the tolerance for the new foreigners in Ireland is therefore Ireland trying to move on socially from the “boring” and out-of-date prejudices of the past (you will remember the daily negative and murderous news from the North while growing up)…..plus realization that we Irish are more Europeanized and globalized than ever. Whatever it is, it is good to be able to visit friends in Belfast without having to go through steel barriers and British army patrols….and to recognize anyone on the SF /IRA end who have not moved on for what they are….murderous, criminal scumbags with no political legitimacy.

Great too to see that “peace” has lead to a surge and fluidity of social and economic movement between North and South, and vice versa. Long may it continue. The next generations will be less and less bigoted.

@ JG: Nope John Its 1014 they have in view: their minds being absent elsewhere (cf: The President’s Brain is Missing).

Its Marxian (as in Groucho). Conjure if you will, and you will need some strong chemical aids, that if everything, like EVERYTHING, in Tir na n’Og, were to conducted in our First Official! Even the Leprechauns would emigrate! And Stormont would be the new Alamo!

@ Paul W: SF have no intention whatsoever of ‘moving on’ as you term it. Their collective minds are mired in the ephemeral, misty and mystical Celtic bogs of the 19th cent., dredged up by the laudanum induced euphorias of Yeats and Co., then paved over in virtual green gossamer by the Gaelic League. It might be interesting if you encountered the whole thing in a book of myths and legends. Think of it (SF policy) as Sweaty Gelly! To call it hazardous to the political well-being of this island is a massive underestimate.

Folk have to eat Paul. And they will only vote for the politicians that butter their bread. SF proffer pap – with a 4″x 2″ cudgel in their other hand! The Irish voters may indeed be a bunch of ‘sheep’, but they are neither blind nor deaf.

@ DOCM: “I see little scope for a new political party but that does not mean that the general thesis espoused by Lucinda Creighton – that the radical nature of the crisis impacting the country has not been met with the required radical reform response – is both true and worthy of support.”

Perhaps interested folk should read: ‘The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth’, Benjamin Friedman. (2004).

My take on his tentative thesis: that there may be a direct relationship between increasing economic/income growth trends and increasing personal and political freedoms, is that in Ireland’s case we were an integral part of The Empire until 1922 and we did ‘benefit’ immediately and directly from the political reforms that were introduced from time to time by Westminster.

But since 1922? And would folk consider the De Valera/McQuaid years as a bunch of laughs – in terms of political and personal freedoms? Mother and Child anyone! And someone please remind me how long it took to get Contraception, Divorce and Pregnancy Termination legislation on our statute books. The dismal list goes on.

OK, so we do rank close to 1 on the Freedom House listings of political and personal freedoms. But we are an English speaking Northern European state, albeit a peripheral one. That alone may explain a lot. EU membership may also explain (in part) some others. The Omens for future improvements in our political, economic and personal freedoms are iffy. Interesting, as they say.

@BW Snr
Happy New Year Brian.

Have an uncle priest who has spent the last 56 years in South Africa (another country!)……he is 89 years old but stillpractices as a priest in Soweto. Has lived in Soweto most of his adult life (only priest that has done so). When I was approx.13 yrs old, I remember hiis recounting of the atrocities in SA by the security forces and he was an active ANC supporter (knew Mandela and Biko). He spent a few years in the bush with the rebels…not fighting, but administering “the Faith”. A few years later when I was 18, many of those stories were the basis of the movie Cry Freedom (in the movie there were two priests who assisted the crossing of the border in the end…in real life there was only one priest involved…two were used to disguise his identity!).

My thoughts on NI have also therefore always had a SA comparison and parrallel, plus my wife’s dad was a protestant Unionist born in Cavan…..

The SA influence means that I am nowadays more open to reconciliation of the previous terrorists (including the likes of previous “official” terrorists like Mandela…). Not quite the same, exact thing as NI, but strong parallels all the same.

Anyway, everyone in Ireland agrees that the SF rhetoric is out-of-date 19th century rhetoric….but that is clearly moving on. It’s a gradual progression…time will tell, etc. However,condemnation in advance isn’t the way I choose to approach the subject. Nuf said.

@JG
Agreed…..it’s imperfect, and lines are blurred….but hopefully in a progression to a better democratic basis, even if it is to the far left (with Republican “ideals” re unification).

The economic point though is that the NI peace process has brought positive immigration and emigration for both parts of the island. NI is now a real competitor for FDI…..positive competition for the South, and also a source of some employment for skilled southerners in the North. All that is good in my view, as is the absence of the violence of prior years. It will be increasingly better as the younger generations put time between the present /future and the past.

By the way, that protestant work ethic has always been a feature of Ireland and Irish institutions…..BOI has a strong protestant background as did Ulster Bank of course (AIB was more republican), the large accounting, law, etc firms in Ireland have mainly protestant backgrounds and founders.

It has never been black or white. My wife’s protestant relatives were known in Kerry for hiding Old IRA activists from the Black and Tans…..Such is the fabric, diversity and complexity of Irish society.

Anyway, interesting thread.

@Paul W,by which metric would that be now:)

“Nobody of course disputes that Northern Ireland’s current economic performance is woeful. But rather than addressing the issue, devolving corporation tax could make it worse. It’s telling – if not surprising that some of those campaigning for the devolution of corporation tax were once poster boys for the Euro. And that in itself, perhaps tells us everything we need to know.”

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/debateni/blogs/henry-reilly/devolving-corporation-tax-could-make-northern-irelands-woeful-economic-performance-worse-29878664.html

Jeez John, now I’v had to scroung around looking for backup…!

Here’s the spin from NI’s accountants. Progressing from huge UK dependence to a better place.

http://www.charteredaccountants.ie/FDI/NI/FDI-and-the-Northern-Irish-Economy/

Plus all the recent FDI announcements…..

@Paul W,couldn’t resist,they enjoyed the largest ever ever in the world,boom/bust in resi. prices,so much for Protestant restraint must have been the Catholics,very slow recovery given the backdrop off a rather accommodating UK housing policy. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23687628

Ok,last one. sorry. I dont want to troll. but worth reading

http://international.cgdev.org/publication/let-people-go-problem-strict-migration-limits

“Soon, the young sandwich-makers incarcerated and then deported from Collier’s doorstep will have arrived in Algeria and Bangladesh, if they have not already. Some of the effects of their removal have been proved by stacks of economic studies; others are hypothetical. What research shows is that the economic value of those men’s labor will decline by 60 to 80 percent or more, reducing the size of the world economy; the job prospects of British workers will be essentially unaffected, given how little interest they have in low-wage service work; the British government will collect less tax revenue; Collier and his colleagues will pay slightly more for tea and cakes; and Algeria and Bangladesh will lose whatever money those men may have been sending home.

Beyond those well-documented effects, Collier posits other, wildly hypothetical effects: that the Oxonians strolling down Holywell Street will be able to gaze at one another with more trust and mutual regard, and that somehow people working in Algeria and Bangladesh will become more motivated to improve their lots and their countries. British national identity will also be protected, like an endangered species, for were England to become “an extension of Bangladesh,” Collier writes at one point, “it would be a terrible loss to global cultures.” Social science may one day prove all this speculation right, but not before other and better books arrive to lift the heavy burden of proof, serving up evidence in place of portentous insinuations and fearful “preventative policies.” “

@Paul W: Thank you for your greeting. Many returns. Nuf said. Yep!

@Local
You can always argue the point….if you have something to say why not have a go.

Clarification – Cry Freedom: the priests were the other way around. Two in real life (one dressed as priest; one real Irish priest); in the movie, one dressed up as a priest. It’s been a long time since I thought about that or looked at the movie…must do so again sometime soon!

And just to give a little more up-to-date info…

http://www.ulsterbusiness.com/articles/2013/10/10/ni-punching-above-its-weight-says-pwc.

NI is now apparently #2 in the UK (after London) for FDI…

Not bad at all,considering how much later they have started on FDI development compared to the Republic.

@ local
You said it. Mudslinging is no substitute for analysis.

@PQ
Sorry,no apologies here for not accepting any definition of “Irish” or “Irishness” in SF terms, if that what you are suggesting. SF represents a small minority north and south of the border, and have made gains on the back of Ireland’s harsh economic realities for many. Nothing more.

What “analysis” have you to offer?

NYTimes article, there seems to be a mismatch between what our Uni’s are producing and the type of employees required by the MNCs’ we are attracting.
Every foreign employee they attract will fill an otherwise vacant housing unit. On the other hand is there a decent ROI on the many hundreds of thousand of hours wasted on outmoded subjects starting in kindergarten.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/business/international/unemployed-in-europe-hobbled-by-lack-of-technology-skills.html?ref=technology

Also, as the Irish education system, from elementary school through to third level is mainly PS in a social democracy, with jobs for life for educators, etc, how does one alter the long established structure (including budgeting) of the system in favour of the required new disciplines? The country doesn’t need e.g. more lawyers at this time….but it’s not possible to dismantle existing uni law depts in any meaningful way….now extend that to many other similar disciplines.

@Paul W
Jobs for life even in Universities with the tenure system is a myth. In a large part of the world when the department is eliminated the professors are laid off if they cannot be placed elsewhere within the University.

Out in the real world 90 days notice with severance of 3 weeks for first year and 2 weeks for each subsequent year of service is considered generous. There are usually provisions for employees over 55 and 60 years old to receive immediate pensions that are prorated (downward)to account for longer pension draw.

We have tenured profs in the family (not in Irl) so I am familiar with what goes on in academia.

You get change by voting out incumbent politicians until the changes are made. Nowhere are we forced to return tweedle dum and tweedle dee, election after election.

I know you have stated accurately what the position in Ireland is. We are so risk averse and stuck in the past that only pressure from the troika will force change. Even though I am sober I still get rattled at the state of affairs.

@ Local + PQ: “Mudslinging about Sinn Fein”. Give us a break! One either knows what their policy means – and how it came to be, or you do not. They are crypto-Fascists, not Constitutional Republicans.

You are welcome to ‘defend’ them if you so wish. I will continue to critique them. If my commentaries come over as ‘mudslinging’ then so be it. But as a matter of interest, just how did SF deal with their critics? They sure as hell did not stoop to slinging bits of wet clay, now did they? And Local: lift that balaclava and lets see who you are? OK!

Leave this sub-thread be. It contributes nothing positive to the opening topic.

It used to be the law that a person’s birth in Ireland was sufficient to make him or her an Irish citizen. The (racist ?) referendum to change this was not a Sinn Fein proposal and indeed their opposition to it cost them votes. Vincent Browne drew attention to the underlying racism in the proposal hidden behind an economic argument. He also made the point that he did not think that those advocating the change were racist. However, it was a useful vote getter for some, particularly in Dublin. Exploiting peoples fear of foreigners is a well established electoral tactic.

@ Paul Quigley: Much obliged for that contribution. Apologies if anything I wrote came across as a personal slight. None was intended.

Each time I come across the issue of immigration I think of the countless thousands of my countrymen and women who ‘fled’ to Britain (and elsewhere in the English-speaking world) to seek waged-labour employments. It really bothers me that they had to go, but I am somewhat comforted that many may have created a better life for themselves – though many clearly did not.

My forebears did not migrate. They hung around and made what they could of their situations. So, I believe that us current inhabitants had better watch what we say about immigration into this country.

Its 20 years since I read Joe Lee’s account of Irish societal politics. I’ll have to re-visit it for some re-enlightenment. There is also Crotty and Schmitt and Coakley and Gallagher. Do folk actually read properly researched historical stuff – rather than relying on newspaper columnists and leader writers – and this site?

‘Ireland 1912-1985: Politics and Society’. J.J. Lee.

‘Ireland and the Politics of Change’. W. Crotty and D. Schmitt, eds.

‘Politics in the Republic of Ireland’, 4ed. J. Coakley and M. Gallagher, eds.

@ Paul Quigley

It was in fact Upton Sinclair, not Mark Twain, in his book “I, Candidate for Governor: And How I Got Licked (1935)”. One can appropriately add the more recent quotation from J.C. Juncker “We all know what to do. We just do not know how to get elected after we do it”. (His luck only recently ran out).

Off topic but very relevant this contribution by Colm McCarthy.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-mccarthy/we-need-to-make-public-service-effective-as-well-as-affordable-29889170.html

I do not think that the content justifies the title and sub-title, these not usually AFAIK not being in the control of the contributor. The article touches on many of the themes that have come up for discussion on this blog. There is, however, a certain confusion at its core in defining the difference between political and administrative responsibility. The current public service management legislation is a major contributor to this unfortunate situation and it cannot be corrected without replacing the legislation. Maybe the pressure of an electorate much more aware of the fact that it is their taxes that are often being squandered will bring this about.

Many of the ideas likely to emerge from discussion during 2014 are bound to repeat what has gone before, notably the Devlin Report which devoted a chapter to distinguishing clearly between policy formulation and it execution. This is an aspect of the problem that simply has to be addressed; “in due course”.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0242/D.0242.196911200039.html

Just change the dramatis personae and the exchanges could be happening today (with considerably less wit!).

The rush for the safety of the big public service tent in the recent crisis has been a sight to behold. Unfortunately, there are financial limits to what it can accommodate and the justification for many being under it is tenuous to non-existent.

@PQ
Paul, thanks for your explanation. For me, Local’s very direct implication that if one doesn’t like SF means one doesn’t like Irish people (preferred immigrants) was too much (complete crap). Surprised that you supported that one.

Smacked of what RF referred to re Keith Vaz earlier…but worse.

As I indicated above, I have no problem with acknowledging SF’s advance in the polls. Willing to hold “powder dry” on whether they can fully evolve from armalite & politics to a more coherent and current political basis. It appears that their positioning is naturally inclining to the far left….which is fine…actually there is a real gap on the left in Ireland given Labour’s recent positioning. However, SF is not there yet in my view…..plenty of baggage…..they haven’t worked out much policy yet and will need to move on from Adams and McGuinness in particular. We’ll see.

@Mickey
I understand that in the “real world” academics, teachers, etc get fired, etc….your are talking mainly NA though. The situation in Ireland is far less flexible; far more entrenched. Very difficult as a result for education in Ireland to adapt quickly enough. Plus, reskilling isn’t actually a real Irish Govt priority. You will note on the other thread the large reductions in spending on education and skills, training, etc. Yes, plenty of waffle that new economy reskilling is a priority, but govt in Ireland is in reality relying on the skills’ importation….and is focused on the MNC tax take primarily…..debt service ghas become all consuming, notwithstanding MN’s recent statement that wthey need to keep an eye on wider growth….the clear agenda there is based on giving tax breaks to win the next election…nothing more.

Very low level of political leadership ion Ireland.

And if you haven’t seen this one….Ireland doesn’t look so bad in comparison:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/does-immigration-mean-france-is-over/?_r=0

“it’s the responsibility of the [Irish] as much as of the immigrants to make this work.”

From the report:
“On the one hand, at least so far, Ireland has been spared the xenophobic brand of politics currently in the ascendant across much of Europe – Ireland lacks a Front National or a Lega Nord. ”

No need for a FN or Lega Nord in Ireland. The State, with its ‘Direct Provision’ model would give the FN a good run for its money.
Try living for 10 years on €19.10 per week, and €9.60 per child per week, just to experience the xenophobia of the Irish State.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/glossary/?gl=31

By the way I am a firm believer in joining a party and attending all meetings. I also make the maximum contribution allowed by law and getting a receipt for it. I also choose a middle of the road party that shows an inclination to govern responsibly.
Party membership in political parties is a tiny fraction of the number of eligible voters and only a small number of those contribute more than the membership fee. As you can see the system is vulnerable to bribery in that the average donation is in the order of Euro 50-60 even though tax deductions (75% returned) can be had to Euro 300-400. I am not familiar with the situation in Ireland other than the brown paper envelope with unmarked bills.

@ PQ

Yes, the colonial inheritance runs very deep. The Protestants in the north benefited from that free land but a fair few left for America in the early 1700s (and became the rednecks, I understand). Afterwards they did well out of the British empire, but not as well as the Scots, and when the curtain came down on their traditional industries in the latter half of the 20th century they were left floundering, as many loyal subjects were.

John Hewitt’s poem “the Coasters” is really on the money

http://virtualmethodist.blogspot.ch/2009/09/coasters.html

“And you who seldom had time to read a book,
what with reports and the colour-supplements,
denounced censorship.
And you who never had an adventurous thought
were positive that the church of the other sort
vetoes thought.
And you who simply put up with marriage
for the children’s sake, deplored
the attitude of the other sort
to divorce.
You coasted along.
And all the time, though you never noticed,
The old lies festered;
the ignorant became more thoroughly infected;
there were gains, of course;
you never saw any go barefoot.

The government permanent, sustained
by the regular plebiscites of loyalty.
You always voted but never
put a sticker on your car;
a card in the window
would not have been seen from the street.
Faces changed on posters, names too, often,
but the same families, the same class of people.
A Minister once called you by your first name.
You coasted along
and the sores supperated and spread.

Now the fever is high and raging;
Who would have guessed it, coasting along?
The ignorant-sick thresh about in delirium
And tear at the scabs with dirty finger-nails.
The cloud of infection hangs over the city,
A quick change of wind and it
Might spill over the leafy suburbs.”

But it could just as well be about climate change, really

@PQ and Seafoid
The very significant positive social difference in my view pre and post Celtic Tiger (not Crisis note) is that the Irish no longer feel like 2nd class citizens vis a’ vis the UK, EU or the world…..It turns up as childish self-importance sometimes. However, it has enabled past chipped shoulder baggage to be dropped…..a very good thing overall.

The positive outcome of this is a more “enlightened” and open society, somehow more confident of itself in the middle of all the carnage. Less stuck in the past (as before), more forward looking.

Doesn’t solve all the social and economic woes. However, there has been a qualitative and palpable positive change in Irish social attitudes compared to what went before. Seems to me that, in that context, many in Ireland clearly see the positives that immigration brings….hence you don’t see the cultural and racist type reactions that one is currently seeing in colonist countries like the UK and France……as per J Smith’s article. Ireland has little to lose and much to gain in embracing the wider changes, including evolving migrant patterns, in the world today.

@PQ
Another way of putting it is that the Irish have achieved equality among equals in J Smith’s terms…..Hence social acceptance for the Irish in the UK and elsewhere (always had it in the US, much to the “surprise” of newly arrived Irish in the past in particular). Methinks the Irish like where this is at (compared to the 2nd class previous self-image), hate when the Irish leave themselves down (in 1st world social equality terms) in San Diego, Australia, etc, and that this development has partly been behind Ireland’s attitude to being the best (debtor) in class!

Social acceptance of immigrants reinforces this “new status”….the immigrants are our Francophiles in mr. smith’s terms….? The more similar the immigrants are to the Irish, the easier it is of course, which is why the Poles and educated immigrants have it easier……not so easy for Romanians (the Bulgarians are “like the Italians”!)….or Travellers for that matter. Ireland and Africans is not quite the same…..not exactly sure….maybe someone can enlighten me here.

Anyway! good for immigrants in Ireland (with the obvious exceptions).

Amazing how central the British attitude to the Irish has been in this transition….we Irish always needed equality recognition from the British in the first instance. Culturally, we have always “needed” British respect, British acknowledgement that we are no longer their serfs……Clearly, NI nationalists /republicans have had a harder time getting out from under that rock.

Interesting too how it has been the British Establishment that has facilitated this…..culminating in Queen Elizabeth’s visit and the “burying of the hatchet”…..

The success and education of Irish emigrants to the UK has also been an integral part of the story. British mams and dads are now very accepting of Irish sons and daughters-in-law. Equality among equals.

Another interesting manifestation has also been the visible uptick in Irish support for greater integration with the UK in these times of economic crisis! Really pisses off dyed-in-the-wool, old fashioned republicans…..surprised that more Locals aren’t already poring into the debate here, in the way that they regularly orchestrate crowd-bullying on Irish newspapers, blogs, etc…….

Finally for now, the other clear manifestation has been in the anger of the Irish via a’ vis Germany…rightly or wrongly. The Irish culturally hate and resent the idea of debt servitude….however, more accepting of the practical help of course! Still, one can take the money and still feel hard done by and resentful. Still, the Germans are not the British…..it’s not the same thing! Hasn’t quite the same depth as the Ireland /UK equation /history.

@ PQ: Thanks for the update. “Pace BWSnr, who doesn’t believe that Ireland was ever a colony …”

That we were never a British colony is a legal fact. Mind you, we did get a bit of a bashing – austerity Tudor style! But that’s how they did things then. And lots of native folk got their lands sequestered. That’s also how they did things then. Just look what happened to the Scottish crofters when sheep became popular. Still are! Financial Consideration 1: Ordinary Folk 0. Never changes, does it?

We actually had our own parliament until 1801 – surprise, surprise, and Westminster was regularly pi**ed off at what they did in Dublin. Solution: hand out some very, very large brown envelopes, plus 103 elected Westminster MPs. Now would someone remind me how many Westminster MPs were elected in India, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc., etc. Like? Zero? Now there’s colonies for ye!

You’re also right about the boggy bit. Park this ‘colony’ stuff and try to pin the critique where it rightly belongs – on Us Ourselves – us Irish who remained, especially those with the political power. And just try to remember that Ireland, as part of the U Kingdom, benefited immediately and directly from all the ‘reform’ legislations passed in Westminster from 1820 thru 1918. Tad inconvenient for that.

Joe Lee has covered our 1912-1985 period. Bit inconvenient it is too. So we could start at 1986 to look for the genesis of our contemporary difficulties? A full-length mirror should suffice: its Us Ourselves! Tad inconvenient that. Look at the stream of complaints on this site alone.

Try to file-away this ‘colony’ nonsense. It is indeed like wading, in circles, in a boggy bog. You could also liken it to a baby’s Blankie: comforting psychological dependency. Albert Hirschman Futility Utd 1: Celitc Progress Athletic 0. Its not Full Time – yet! Or should we ask who is paying the Ref’s salary – 😎

Perhaps immigration will increase the number of taxpayers in the country, so spreading the burden of this massive internal devaluation and national debt.

As mentioned above interest is growing in increased integration with Britain. We surely learned the hard way that the power imbalance was abused. We must also know that we have to avoid getting ourselves beholden to any single country.

We always wanted a level playing field, we got it in the EU which is ideally suited to all the small countries in Europe. We were dependent on the US and Britain to keep the Punt stable, the EZ solved that problem. We are now in the place that we have long dreamed of a 400 million barrier free market and a stable currency. The ECB are spoon feeding us with low interest rate funds. We have died and woken up in heaven.

Our major problem is our inability to govern ourselves responsibly. The solution to that is totally within our control.