Policy seminar on property taxes

Topic: Property taxes: Why, how, who pays?

When: 4 pm, 11/11/2010

Where: ESRI

Presenters: Tim Callan on this paper, Richard Tol on this paper

21 replies on “Policy seminar on property taxes”

Topic: Property taxes: Why, how, who pays?

Could also be titled:

Higher Income Taxes: Why not, how not, who not, and why we should pay Property Taxes instead.

Correction. Should be titled that way.

Mortgages are a form of private tax yet vast swathes of the populace cannot or have difficulty paying this tribute.
Now they want to add a more formal tax !

People should get their head around the fact that it is the monetory system that is in crisis not the tax structure.
We have a static or declining money supply for Christ sake yet the interest rate will as always go exponential.
Not only do we not default on our debt but we add more Tax!!!!!!!!
Do the Proles realise that they ain’t no happy ending to this as the Maths will destroy them all.
What kind of mid ranking dummies run this adminstrative region ?

Yea , pretty much.
The whole basis of the discussions at the moment are based on a false premise.
We can have sophisticated discussions about the nature of other things if you wish but be gentle as I am a simple soul with only rudimentary lodgic.

However policey discussion at the moment is of a even simpler nature – “The Pain is weakness leaving the body” mantra.
This is a slogan of simple grunts who need a psychological mechanism to counter their innate fear of debt and fling themselves at the nearest machine gun nest – they are however expendable.

The Proles don’t own speculative property and should not be significantly affected by a property tax if it is done correctly.
The property tax could be better labelled as a tax on property speculation
That sounds much more palatable

I think we should just humble ourselves to our triune God and do it His way.

Get rid of all taxes to the civil government except for .5 shekel of silver from every male 20+ years old for a justice system.

1% tax to church or school of your choice.
9% tax to infrastructure project/s of your choice
5% tax to social welfare project/s of your choice.
5% to rejoice!

Woe and more woe!
Taxes are inevitable across the board. Who pays is a mere detail. All will pay and PAY!

Services will be cut and taxes will rise annually, for the next ten years.

Anyone disagree?

A land without justice is just a land of robbers (a criminal syndicate). St Augustine

The taxes will go up but only for those who are the foundation of the country (the honest folk). All else will find away around the taxes. The outcome will be the immorality that has of late been uncovered, multiplied.

And what are they going to tax… property, property, property, work, work, work, flights, … Just a land of slaves. Who will stay? The young wanting opportunity and property? no, I don’t think so. Then who will do the work for pennies? How will the ponzi scheme keep going? How will all these “state servants” keep getting paid++? No, they will end up on the “table” as well. There will be no freedom and rejoicing if we lock the door.

There is a way to open the doors… debt forgiveness and restructuring.

A blanket property tax is very unfair IMO.

Struggling property owners could fall over the edge even if the tax doesn’t appear to be much.

I’m more in favour of what Hongkong does to be honest. I recall reading that they have something akin to a property income tax but it encourages the development of the land rather than letting vast tracts idle. Income tax is also very low as a result.

A blanket property tax will hit property prices more, which in the short term causes a lot of pain, but is only fair in the mid and long term. Property price stability is better than any property bubble.

Can I put in another shameless plug for the website I finished yesterday: houseflog.ie. Now buyers can advertise their offers online. This will hopefully speed the property trade up and we shall see price stability sooner rather than later.

Fair enough.
But before we start with this process lets find out the true worth of the assets and liabilities of bank or NAMA balance sheets.
Then we can work from a point of certainty.
I see prime central apartments vacant and forlorn because the banks refuse to disclose their true exposure
How can you tax a asset with a artificial value ?
Assets worth 30,000 or 300,000 Euro – who knows until the stock is cleared and reaches equilibrium – then we can have a rational discussion on taxes , not before.

Value? Value is determined by demand of the area (land). Give me a break, who can determine value when our future is leaving these green of green shores for JOBS! And how can we determine value when the currency itself is questionable?

Show me debt forgiveness, gold/silver backed currency, a just court system (no prisons) and respect for private untaxed property and you’ll see rejoicing! Now that is value!

I’m all in favour of property taxes over the long run. But in reality, this further will depress house prices, and hence effect property backed loans -the types of loans that the State has become very heavily exposed to.

So while I like the idea in theory, I don’t see this as a good policy for us to adopt anytime in the near future. At least not while the State itself is a major participant in the property market.

However, one day i would like to see this happening. It would reallocate some of the profits from property speculation and apportion them to the government. it would prevent the hording of massive landbanks by speculators. it would force horders to sell derelict sites to people who will actually use them. It will keep the price of property low and the market liquid, so that new entrants can enter the market.

So, i’m all in favour -but not yet!

@Ger Your wrong! Look at the mess property is in the USA and they have paid property tax for decades. It is as corrupt as it can get and they are worse off because of infrstructure dependent on this slave tax. They have the world currency holding them up, still.

A valuation-based property tax, that would raise nearly €1bn even with allowances for those with low incomes looks like a massive improvement over what we have now. I think it might even help clear the housing market which seem, on an anecdotal level, stuck by uncertainty over prices.
Without any specialist knowledge on taxation I wonder though why the valuation-based option is in the most developed schemes. Surely a tax on area of residential land would be least distorting and be pretty easy to administer? Is their some ideological hang-up in favour of taxing an imputed income rather than a property per se? Maybe there is something else but I’d love to know.

A fine display of selfishness and greed here, exactly what got us into trouble in the first place. Property taxes will reduce the cost of purchasing a home, a very good thing for first time buyers. It provides a stable cash flow for the gov’t. Can our gov’t be trusted with the task of valuing all property, will the well connected be able to enter tents and emerge with lower valuations. Will the voters find their moral compass or will it be more of the same. Those who are strapped for cash can defer payment which will be collected when the property is sold (gov’t has a lien for taxes outstanding). Countries with property tax usually have a provision where gov’t grants rebates based on income up to about 1.2 times the minimum wage, pensioners usually get an age related rebate and a mix of low income rebates (blended). Ireland is in a bind with six tax options, raise income taxes, raise corporate taxes, raise sales taxes, impose death (inheritance) taxes, impose capital gains tax or impose property taxes. There is room to impose higher income taxes on the upper bands of income and capital gains tax. Ya pick yer pizen and hopes for de besht.

@ Brendan

Stuck by uncertainty on prices – you’re kiddin? We were listening to that nonsense before our fearless regulator left the stage.

You are making the classic mistake of separating the banking and government spheres.
They are as one – there are 3 methods used for revenue extraction -Tax , interest and inflation.
The revenue is declining on all 3 methods including inflation as most activities are now net energy negative.
The solution does not lie with taxing a declining money supply but changing the value of capital – unfortunately for the most part that is out of Irish hands although the Irish Goverment should create a industrial / Utility creating bank with the goal of building the core capital of the country by providing near zero or zero interets loans for rebuilding the ESBs capital base for example – this will not effect directly the fiscal defecit and indeed may indirectly improve the tax base.


Could we have a property tax system that included the BER rating of the property? The initial property tax assessment might be based on the size or valuation of the property, but with an assumption that the house was D-rated or worse for BER. If the occupant improved the BER rating then they would get a discount off the property tax. In the long run would we get wider energy savings in the community from such an initiative?

Kevin Murray (Chartered Engineer)

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