Septic tanks

It is not possible to follow the logic that we should all pay and receive the same things regardless of where we live. It is a standard that is way beyond us here.

I’ve been trying unsuccessfully for years to get a water connection, yet I still have to pay taxes to a state that gives water for free to urban dwellers. I laughed at the fuss about bin charges; I long for a bin collection, free or otherwise. There is no Garda for 20 miles, no hospital for 60 miles, no fire brigade for 25 miles (who refuse to cover us this far out of town anyway). No museums, parks etc.

But I choose to live here. I am happy without all of those things. There is a constant agitation from the insular media that rural dwellers are a drain on the state, but apart from education and a road which is barely maintained I don’t see what the state has spent on me in the last decade.

Nor do I think it is practical for the state to provide anything and everything to all citizens. I’d rather have a lower tax burden in recognition of the state’s inability to provide comparable services in remote locations.

“Nobody pays” is not an option. Art. 9 of the WFD 2000 specifies that everyone should pay for water services whether urban or rural.

The “periodic inspection” requirement may be finessed by ensuring that all tanks are inspected at some point every 5 years but that known polluted areas are inspected first. Re-registration is required every 5 years. It won’t be €5 in 2017. Calling the fee a ‘registration charge’ is a device to claim there is no inspection charge. Similarly there are no tuition fees in an Irish university, just an annual registration charge.

It does seem wasteful to use treated drinking water for washing clothes, flushing toilets etc. Simple rainwater harvesting systems (drainpipe plus barrel) should have been mandatory in the Irish building code for these purposes.

For the purpose of actually spending money on something useful, rather on highways to nowhere, I’d actually be in favour of County Councils setting up their own means using approved guidelines, taking on manpower, carrying out the structural works, a licensing system carrying out improvement works on a once off basis. Thereafter, maintaining these plants eg every 5yrs with the issue of a similar cert to that provided to cars by the NRC and fee based. There could be an annual charge to provide for this service. IT might provide some of those phantom jobs FG/LB talk about. But given the mess of our public finances, unless we can turn our septic tanks into banks, the money to do this will be hard come by. On the other hand, we already know how to turn banks into septic tanks .

@Ger
Your lifestyle is made viable by a Global Imperial Navy that keeps the oil lines flowing – Independence or semi independence amongest the rural population is now a illusion as no agarian subsistence farmers remain in Ireland.
I don’t begrudge you your hobbit lifestyle & I don’t really care about septic tanks – I would just raise the excise on oil by 10 cents.

@Richard Tol

Have any of us ever really pood for free Richard? Ever?

Will we ever poo for free in the future?

Is all the pooing and froing now done with this septic tank issue?

Well they pay less than the urban dwellers since most of the national wealth is generated in Dublin – that’s a no-brainer.

Ireland is one of the most car dependent nations on the planet.

Thanks to the distributed population pattern it has the second most miles of road per capita in Europe (taking second place to Austria) http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tra_hig_pav_percap-transportation-highways-paved-per-capita

It follows that it has more electricity grid network per capita

Do you really believe that the infrastructure was funded purely by the isolated beneficiaries?

@Fergaloh
The power grid is paid for by a tiered structure of standing charge for rural and urban users.

The road network I grant you, but that scarcely cancels out all the imbalance in the remainder of public expenditure.

Tax is based on income, not location.

I think the reason this debate is so sensitive is that it has been used (abused) by those who do not want to see any rural housing being constructed.

Septic tanks have been regulated intensely in recent years as a means of preventing rural houses from securing planning permission. An Taisce (a group I am actually a member of, but who I disagree with intensely on this issue) are opposed to rural housing, dispersed settlement and Bungalow Blight. They have used the issue of septic tanks as a stick to beat those who would apply to build a home in rural Ireland. They have had a lot of success in changing the regulatory environment and a lot of people I know opted for urban housing (against their preference to remain at home), because of the hassle that now follows from trying to get planning permission in a rural area.

When an Taisce bemoan the proliferation of housing estates around rural towns, I am apopleptic with rage as they have engineered a situation where literally tens of thousands of young couples were compelled to leave their own communities to move into towns. It is no exaggeration to say that the proliferation of sprawling estates was a direct result of an Taisce lobbying.

Similarly, they have cynically taken up arms against the building of standard bungalow cottages. They want each new house to have an architect and a unique design. Again, their motivation is I believe to pressurise planners to deny permits to rural houses on any grounds (though thankfully, they have had less success with this than with the tanks). I would also disagree with this anyway, because I believe it is insensitive to interfere with a customary design. You wouldn’t dream of telling an italian town planner to stop people from building mediterranean style houses. You wouldn’t tell an Elizabethan English town to prevent the use of exposed structural timbers in new buildings -why then are we so keen to shun the customary appearance of our own building style? Is it so objectionable in practicality or appearance? There is no good reason, only to obstruct construction altogether.

Idem -the extension of the national spatial strategy from merely being a plan for infrastructure to being a plan for population redistribution. The creep of this particular plan is very worrying to me.

People just don’t get the seismic inversion of the rural / urban relationship especially since the end of the 19th century / beginning of the 20th century.
Before Industrialisation energy (food) flowed into the city from rural areas where it was processed , traded exported etc.
After industrialisation & especially since the beginning of the oil age energy no longer primarily came from agriculture.
So cities bypassed their local hinterlands almost completly.
Cities must always remain in energy defecit – when they cannot, they fail.
But even now cities are more effiecent in their resourse usage as a massive amount of energy is needed to sustain a modern lifestyle in a rural area.
The rural areas receive money / second hand oil transfers from the modern city / oil field matrix.
The most effiecent mechanism to increase efficiency is to increase oil taxes & the like – if people wish to live alone in their hobbit holes I say let them – many can get on their rothar & burn turf in their fires again.
There is no need for land taxes and taxes pretending to be environmental in nature.
We need to get away from this Duncan Stewartisation of the countryside – it does not sit well with the populace – many of whom are still very independent.

Ger
I used to live in the second last house in Luxembourg.
Between us and the next village were things called fields.
One off housing is virtually an alien concept there.
(Richard Tol can wade in with his observations about the proliferation of one-off housing in Holland)

One off housing is a direct result of the speculative land bubble which was facilitated by clientalist political system which benefits the individual at the cost of society (PR guy may take over here). An Taisce did what it could to damn the dyke but the number of holes exceeded their fingers.

I’ll have to check with Eamon O’Cuiv on the figures, but his fundamental point is that of the Xmillion spent by the government, central and local, on sewerage, ALL of it goes towards the urban infrastructure. ALL.

Therefore, it is not unreasonable of rural dwellers to suggest that some of these costs be picked up by the state, since we are all taxpayers.

Now personally, I’m content with the situation that living where we do, as Our Great Leader said today, is a privilege and that if I want to live in my little independent republic then I should pay the costs for that. In other words, I don’t MIND subsiding town poo, just don’t tell me it’s the other way round.

However, if there are isolated cases of say, 50 year old septic tanks that require major refurbishment (e.g. extending percolation area etc) and there is a low income involved, then a taxpaying rural dweller can make a case that they are entitled to some sort of grant or subsidy.

Again, please let’s keep in mind this HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE. In Cavan, I think the failure rate was about 10% and Cavan is a county with very particular problems. That failure rate would not necessarily be replicated elsewhere. So Hogan is right – let’s assess and cost, before we start the row on who pays.

If you want to see maps of where all 418,000 septic tanks are see Ireland After NAMA post

http://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/what-lies-beneath-irelands-septic-tanks/

Mapped by number and %households by ED and county

@Richard,
Thanks for direction to earlier discussion. http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/01/17/towards-irish-water/ It saves me the work. The estimated costs in that discussion to provide sewage and water on public schemes seemed to vary from €300-650 per household. In any case it does cost and there is a benefit. I used to pay for water and sewage in a small town house in America and inflation adjusted it was in that range.

I have my own well and septic tank now in a new build. But I had to pay ~€1,500 to put in a water disinfection system after my daughter nearly died of renal failure from an E Coli O157 infection in the water. If everybody had to pay the economic cost of providing water and sewage services it would be easier to bring in charges and inspections to ensure that private water and sewage systems meet standards.

However, the country is financially f$%^ed. This makes it all the more annoying that the attitude seems to be to give grants to fix septic tanks rather than charge all the people who are now benefiting from taxpayer funded water and sewage the economic cost of providing these services. I wouldn’t mind paying a septic tank inspection charge if Joe Higgins and all his supporters who want expensive services for nothing weren’t sponging from me.

PS I thought I saw you loading up a removal van on the news over Christmas!

@Fergaloh

“I used to live in the second last house in Luxembourg.
Between us and the next village were things called fields.
One off housing is virtually an alien concept there.
(Richard Tol can wade in with his observations about the proliferation of one-off housing in Holland)

One off housing is a direct result of the speculative land bubble which was facilitated by clientalist political system which benefits the individual at the cost of society (PR guy may take over here). An Taisce did what it could to damn the dyke but the number of holes exceeded their fingers.”

I’m afraid I don’t see that any of this is relevant to the debate on one-off housing.

One off housing is a natural consequence of a dispersed settlement pattern. It is an older form of settlement pattern that has been wiped out in other parts of Europe (most systematically in Scotland). We fought a Land War against the landlord class partly to prevent them from doing it here. (No landlord’s grassland http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Landleagueposter.JPG). There is nothing wrong with it simply because other countries decided to urbanise.

I don’t see how a recent speculative land bubble was a factor in this. Indeed that bubble was if anything skewed towards housing estates.

I don’t see the relevance of Luxembourg to this debate.

I don’t see the cost to society of having people living independently of the State.

I don’t see what the problem is with one-off housing. Why is it evil? Rural communities, living where their ancestors have lived for centuries. There is something far more pernicious about splitting up families and prescribing the location and lifestyle of others.

Just because some pundits think it would be utopian if we all lived on top of one another, doesn’t mean we should all upend our lives in deference to their supposed wisdom. Much of this debate is sophistry and ego; just because paper won’t refuse ink, doesn’t mean we have to do what every eccentric writes in the papers.

Finally, I can assure you it is all moot. People cannot be controlled like CGI armies. They will live as and where they want -and though planners can influence the decisions of some, there will always be people who simply won’t bow to moderate pressure from others. Unless you’re prepared to use force (like the Scottish landlords), you won’t shift people from their homes.

@Fergaloh

ah yes..I wondered when someone would mention the Scottish highland clearances! and the landlords!

For the record I dont believe it is utopian for people to be living on top of each other. I grew up in a one off house (with a septic tank). The problem is centuries ago people did not have the services demanded by the population regardless of their geographical location. This is a valid criticism of dispersed settlement.

Here are some references for you

http://oneoffireland.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/afft-urban-generated-hosuing-in-rural-areas-2-1976.pdf

http://coe.epa.ie/safer/iso19115/displayISO19115.jsp?isoID=153

@ Richard Tol

“That was staged. The movers did all the actual loading.”

Why did you allow that?

@ The Alchemist

Very off topic. I’m interested in your take on rural Ireland. In which direction, agriculturally, should Ireland go?

Ireland will have property taxes and they will be around 2 grand for the average residence. The Gov’t’s debts will be paid and it cannot all end up on personal income taxes.

The two chamber septic tank conquered rural Ireland in the fifties thanks to a generous grant from the natural governing party. On final acceptance the cheque could be picked up at the local TD’s office. Nobody told the people about pumping them out (solids accumulate over time). These are the tanks that failed due to lack of maintenance forty years ago. Thank God for the EU who have now lessened our chances of dying from Cholera and Typhoid.

There is one important issue and that is demanding payment to dispose of toxic waste. I remember when tyres could be put out and taken away as regular garbage. Then a bright Gov’t decided to charge a small disposal fee per tyre, the country side quickly became littered with tyres. The Gov’t then imposed a disposal fee at point of sale which solved the problem. The pump out from septic tanks should be placed in settling ponds and the outflow filtered to make it safe. The solids are processed and sold off. If there is a charge the waste will be scattered all over the country from small streams to large streams to farmers fields. The so called solution will be worse than the status quo.

Our Gov’t has a lot to learn and needs an electorate that knows which end is up and the guts to act on that knowledge. Instead we have the usual rural/urban rant with no thought about what is good for the country as a whole.

@US: “…if Joe Higgins and all his supporters who want expensive services for nothing weren’t sponging from me.”

If only. Its virtually the whole feck*** lot of them (politicians in Dáil) Ulick. And, unfortunately they are not spongers – they’re addicts: addicted to your money! And like really desperate addicts they go about the countryside and snatch folk’s wallets, bags and purses and loot the cash. They have this fundamentalist idea that they can promise all sorts of subsidies, incentives, tax reliefs – and whatever your having yourself, and its costless! Well it sure is not!

Mind you, some voters seem to have a somewhat similar idea about entitlements. Some folk are set to get a real nasty suprise any day soon.

@MH: Yep. Distract them with ‘style and storey’ – would not want them to cop on to the ‘content and fact’ – now would we!

Most of these houses not a farm will have to be abandoned anyhow – trying to make them viable is a waste of resourses.
Yee guys are not seeing the bigger picture ………..meanwhile very little capital is used to reduce our energy dependency & vulnerability to external demand shocks.
Forget about them – its a distraction.
The entire OECD is in major trouble – with the strongest eating the weakest to stay on top of the food chain.
OECD total TPES
Y2005 : 5554 MTOE
Y2009e : 5171 MTOE
Where did that 383 MTOE go ??
Its as if the Germany(348Mtoe) & Austria(34Mtoe) of 2006 just disappeared………..

@ The Alchemist

In developed countries other than Ireland some of the biggest scandals have involved spreading partially treated sewage on food producing land. The words pathogens, viruses, bacteria, heavy metals are bandied about. The raw food sector suffers, particularly cabbage, lettuce, carrots, parsnips, turnips. green onions.

Where I have real difficulty is in trying to get my head around a Gov’t of a country where they have wrapped themselves up in legislation, rules, policies and regulations to the point where they are paralysed when it comes to building infrastructure that is essential to the health and safety of the population. No doubt about it, we are different and not for the better.

“Either everyone poos for free, or no one. I favour the latter.”

Fair enough, but in the case of the latter shouldn’t the charge reflect the cost?

Surely the only way to incentivise the kind of densities that would begin to make state service provision affordable again is to pass on the cost savings.

@ Dork

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmuş

All of the less prosperous countries in the Middle East run that system. It’s the only way most people living in the Delta in Egypt can get to Cairo

Say you want to go from Bandon to Cork boy. There’s a fleet of minibuses hanging around some square in Bandon and as soon as it’s full the bus goes. They all drop passengers at the same place in Cork and then pick up the return crowd.

@Ger
Where is the evidence that An Taisce or other groups have abused the septic tank debates. An Taisce’s public pronouncements on this issue have been very pragmatic. even calling for a hardship fund.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1223/1224309420005.html

As far as I am aware An Taisce are not opposed to rural dwellings per se. They are opposed to urban generated rural housing sprawl. It is simply an argument of lazy convenience and vilification to say otherwise. Where is your evidence?

c.170,000 one-off houses have been permitted in Ireland since 2001. The highest of any decade since the beginning of last century. This is hardly having a lot of success in changing the regulatory environment. What changes are you referring to? [by the way a very significant proportion are vacant]

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=BHQ01

The record shows that An Taisce have appealed more ‘sprawling estates’ nationwide during the boom and stood full square against overzoning and the property bubble madness [and often villified for doing so]. It is a complete fabrication to say that they have engineered a situation where tens of thousands of young people have been forced to move to towns because of An Taisce. As noted above 170,000 one-off houses have been granted since 2001. Where is your evidence?
e.g. http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/234725.htm

An Taisce have nothing to do with rural design guidelines. These are adopted by councillors and incorporated into their development plans. Where is your evidence for this?

http://www.epa.ie/downloads/pubs/research/econ/name,27812,en.html

Where is your evidence of the ‘creep’ of the NSS. All the evidence shows it was routinely ignored.

I’ve been keeping tabs on the number of comments on this thread and on Philip Lane ‘fiscal compact’ thread. The latter has just crept ahead – mainly because it’s heading off-piste, but it is interesting.

For me, this little storm in a toilet bowl is just another example of the total failure of Ireland’s system of parliamentary democracy. And the failure is at a number of levels.

First, insofar as it might be an issue for a national parliament, there seems to be no parliamentary process to address it sensibly – apart from the opposition scoring politcial points – where a debate might be conducted on the basis of facts, evidence and analysis, some common ground secured and government directed to do its job.

Secondly, in the absence of any effective parliamentary process, the Government was forced to engage directly with the irate punters, but there is no forum where a rational consideration of costs and benefits might be conducted. It descended to a slanging match and reason vanished. And, despite all the resources at the Government’s disposal, the executive dominance it enjoys and the leading role of the Cabinet’s ‘enforcer’, it was forced to back down in the face of concerted opposition from a disparate and diffused grouping that were able to focus on a single issue. The lesson will not have been lost on other, but more well-organised, narrow sectional economic interests and the prospect of any meaningful structural reforms recedes even further. If ‘Big Phil’ is forced to back down what chance will his weaker-kneed (and more compromised) cabinet colleagues have.

Thirdly, the absence of effectively empowered and resourced local governance has meant that this issue, which in most respects should be namaged and admininstered locally, has become a hot issue for central government – and by forcing this response it has weakened government.

But the most interesting thing, perhaps, is that this Government, given the extent of its executive dominance and the lack of effective, formal restraint has more in common has much more in common with authoritarian regimes, such as the Chinese government, than it might care to acknoweldge – and certainly more I suspect than most people seem to realise.

Under authoritarian regimes it is often the case that relatively small incidents involving the arbitrary exercise of state power can trigger a reaction that is hugely disproportionate to the action that caused it. It’s as if pressure has been building up and very little is required to release it. And so it seems in this case.

But Governments never seem to learn. Rather than focusing on ways to reduce the pressure, every effort is made to secure the vessel even more to minmise the possibility of further eruptions. But all they do is make these eruptions more likely and more damaging.

@sarah
unfortunately Stephen Kinsella didnt give a good interview.

[THIS IS PRIVATE INFORMATION]

Urban dwellers [incl. small rural towns and villages] paid c. 5 times as much and rural dwellings cost about 3- 5 times as much for the State to service.

@Edgar

Development levies paid by new houses it’s true.

That Galway problem was caused by municipal sewage wasn’t it? Not private septic tanks. I think Galway had failed to upgrade the plant there even though finance was made available for it.

@Sarah

Just another cost issue to consider – grey water.

Grey water is the water from kitchen sinks, bathrooms etc which is supposed to go into a system such as yours. BTW I too have a system like yours and it was installed when we moved into this house 18 months ago. I estimate the cost was c€7,000 which includes engineers cost, the unit itself, contractor and importantly (and rarely mentioned in any ‘debate’ – the unit requires a power supply, and therefore requires an electrician and in our case a separate fuse box)

The issue at the time of installation was that the groundswork specialist told me that there was NO requirement for grey water to run off into the septic tank/percolation unit. He said he always ensured that any projects he was involved in always had grey water running into septic tanks and my system is designed that way but importantly it was not a requirement as far as he was concerned.

Now whilst we can all estimate the costs of upgrading septic tanks relatively easily the costs involved of re piping grey water into upgraded sepctic tank units could be enormous. Why I hear you ask. Simply because the majority of house owners haven’t the foggiest clue where his/her run off grey water pipes actually go when they leave the house and more importantly in 90%+ cases involved these grey water pipes run under foothpaths or around houses or under tarmacadam / stone work around the house which would in theory have to be lifted and relaid.

Without knowing where the grey water pipes are flowing to the costs here are literally a finger in the air job or simply put – it ain’t go to happen unless Big Phil is willing to repay householders the restoration costs noted above which could be many thousands per house.

@Paul

“This is only going to get worse across the board, but particularly in this Minister’s area. The property charge issue and the water charge and metering issues are simmering nicely.”

Actually, I don’t see a big need to worry. It’s easy for the broadcasters to attend a protest meeting and put the Shinnors and Mattie McGrath on the radio. But as I think I said earlier, a county councillor of my acquaintance (cough) has not received one SINGLE complaint about either charge and instead cannot keep registration forms in his office due to demand. In fact, he told me this evening he doesn’t know why they bothered reducing the charge to €5. I guess Hogan can say this tax has to have an extra incentive due to the legal process. Honestly, I’m convinced most people see the sense in this.

@All

Having some feedback given to me most days on what people are posting about in various financial sections of the media etc. are people aware that most of the world are laughing at Ireland and it’s “Government U-turn on septic tanks” thing? Those Paddies… etc.

@One-Off Ireland,

Facts and figures! Well I’ll be blowed. Many thanks for this. (I doubt Ms. Carey will be excessively discombobulated.)

What ever about the one-offs (which I see are your main concern and which, by any international comparator, would be hilarious if they didn’t impose so many externalities), it does show how so many different interests colluded to create such a property bubble. In this instance, local authorities had no real recurring revenue base and generated a lot of revenue from these fees on a one-off (in the sense of a one-time charge with no further recurring charges) basis on new properties. Allowing and encouraging the building of more and more houses was the only way to ensure a recurring revenue stream.

It is, of course, extremely unlikely that these one-time, up-front charges reflect the present value of the stream of costs they were expected to defray. But those who have paid them will be totally opposed to any recurring property charge to pay for on-going services as they will claim, and with some justification, that have paid for them already up-front.

What a total mess.

And to think that Ireland was gifted with a system of local governance at the foundation of the atate which could have been adapted and developed over time… and all we’ve managed to do is to create this mess.

@edgar

re Cavan – Totally agree. This has all been done and with little fanfare. That’s why I think the opposition to this is being exaggerated.

@one-off

“As you can see there are 8743 septic tanks in this WMU, 1087 tanks in 19 river water bodies are posing a risk to water quality due to their density, location and unsuitable hydrogeological conditions.”

So a failure rate of 12% in one of the most vulnerable regions – not 90%.

It’s amazing sometimes how people on one side of an argument really really need disaster just to prove a point. It’s like the guys on the other thread who really need the government’s bond strategy to fail, because otherwise, they’re wrong.

I checked with relations in Cavan btw whose tank failed the test – very minimal investment required. Two pipes sorted it out.

some more facts for you…

http://www.wfdireland.ie/docs/1_River%20Basin%20Management%20Plans%202009%20-%202015/ShIRBD%20RBMP%202010/Water%20Management%20Unit%20Action%20Plans/Little%20Brosna%20WMU.pdf

There are 613 septic tanks within this WMU, All 613 are located in areas of very high or extreme risk

http://www.wfdireland.ie/docs/1_River%20Basin%20Management%20Plans%202009%20-%202015/ShIRBD%20RBMP%202010/Water%20Management%20Unit%20Action%20Plans/Feale%20WMU.pdf

There are 12,860 septic tanks within this WMU, 7,704 of these are located in areas of very high or extreme risk

http://www.wfdireland.ie/docs/1_River%20Basin%20Management%20Plans%202009%20-%202015/ShIRBD%20RBMP%202010/Water%20Management%20Unit%20Action%20Plans/Mulkear%20WMU.pdf

There are 7,973 septic tanks within this WMU, 4,629 of which are located in areas of very high or extreme risk.

http://www.wfdireland.ie/docs/1_River%20Basin%20Management%20Plans%202009%20-%202015/ShIRBD%20RBMP%202010/Water%20Management%20Unit%20Action%20Plans/Deel%20(Shannon)%20WMU.pdf

There are 6,318 septic tanks within this WMU, 4,535 are located in areas of very high or extreme risk.

http://www.wfdireland.ie/docs/1_River%20Basin%20Management%20Plans%202009%20-%202015/ShIRBD%20RBMP%202010/Water%20Management%20Unit%20Action%20Plans/Camlin_Rinn%20WMU.pdf

There are 7729 septic tanks within this WMU, 5091 of these are located in areas of very high or extreme risk

There’s absolutely nothing I really enjoy more than coming to this website each and every evening following work. Thanks for most of the nice articles!!