A very Irish story

The DPP has for whatever reason sat on the case for years. While it would be nice to see criminal trials, the instant someone is put in front of a jury the legal eagles (or turkey vultures) will hotfoot it to get the trial stopped regardless of any tapes, on the grounds of the impossibility of getting a fair jury. And they may be right.
So, if the state wont act or cant act, then someone has to .There was a time when the media were the fourth estate before they became regurgitators of press releases. Its to their credit that we now now more than we did last week.
If the DPP really is concerned, head to court either with bankers in the dock or the Indo in the dock. Enough whining and hiding.

No doubt the DPP has its reasons.

The only good reason I can think of is that we are eventually going to see some prosecutions. I’m not holding my breath. All sorts of bad reasons come to mind. But why are we left guessing? If someone set off a bomb in the city centre causing a few miserable millions’ worth of damage we’d have reports about the ongoing investigations and appeals for witnesses to come forward. Why is white-collar crime treated so differently?

We need reform of more then the libel laws to allow open debate.

In 2000 Mary Harney said that Charles Haughey “should be convicted” for what he did to the country in an interview with the Sunday Independent. Her intervention gave the Judge reason to quash the criminal case against him and he never saw the inside of a cell.

In comparison to today, Haughey’s crimes seem mild. It seems everyone is going to say enough to make a Judge think a fair trial is impossible. And these guys will walk.

I would hate to be an Attorney General walking that line.

However, all the major political parties have promised to reform Libel Laws since at least the 80’s. And since none of them have done it, perhaps this is a cross of their own making.

So the DPP believes that the truth emerging could have “potential consequences”.

So what?

Our courts have been able to deal with all types of threats over the years.

@John

Mr Haugheys crimes were not mild—his crimes helped to create the property bubble.

Mr Haughey required a minimum of a million pounds per year to finance his lavish lifestyle. All Mr Haugheys bagmen are sovereign landlords. Haughey ensured Ireland had the most anti-tenant commercial property lease law in the world i.e upward-only rent reviews tied to the longest leases in the world with no exit strategies. Reckless Irish banks lent tens of billions against these ruinous leases,not against the properties themselves, and created the greatest commercial property bubble in the history of mankind. When this bubble burst it bankrupted the banks and the sovereign.

No other sovereign in the world would sign these ruinous leases and waste billions of it’s citizens money.
All Haughey’s bagmen are sovereign landlords.

Can we really not change the wording in this thread?

There’s nothing uniquely Irish about any of this. France is badly run, Germany is in the pockets of the arms industry, the UK has some very dodgy military engagements, the US arms terrorists against its people’s wishes.

Agree on the need for reform globally but we really miss a hugely important part of the solutions if we don’t think of this globally. Financial markets are global – do should governance

1.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0418/1224294907395.html

“Inaction is also to be seen in the administration of justice. Tribunals have failed by every measure, yet they have been allowed to grind on and successive justice ministers have put forward no alternatives – such as the creation of the role of investigating magistrate, as exists in other jurisdictions

2 The public should be allowed to get a referendum going with a set number of signatures- say 50,000

3 Accountability at the decision-making nexus of ministers and senior civil servants. Would it be too much to ask for important decisions like 440bn bank guarantees to be documented?

4 joined up thinking between departments

5 A legal whistleblower to lift the lid on the Augean stables of the legal profession . How can it be that laywers working on corruption cases get paid more than the amount involved in the original corruption ?

You are living in a banana republic…this has to stop,as does the exodus from NAMA to PE firms.A cooling off period has been suggested…..the chap who supervised the BofI coco sale is another example he’s with wait for it…the buyer these days.
“Detective Superintendent Colm Featherstone and Det Inspector Denis Heneghan are both just over 50 and would have had at least eight years’ service left before compulsory retirement. They were both offered senior positions; Det Super Featherstone with AXA and Det Insp Heneghan with AIB, to oversee compliance and anti-fraud measures.
Their early departures are a blow to the Garda Fraud Bureau and come after the early departure of another detective superintendent, Pat Collins, who left at the start of the year to take up a position as head of fraud and anti- money laundering with the Bank of Ireland.”
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/blow-for-gardai-as-two-senior-fraud-officers-headhunted-28818788.html

@rf yep we took a few bil off done dump ass paddy bankers correct…they were eh masters of the universe types.but thanks for visiting we enjoyed it make sure if you ever have a banking industry again to stop by.
Say hi to Wilbur too and KW who are scooping up as much away as possible…wonder why they will do with their profits …

US style libel law where there is wide latitude in respect of public officials and public figures eg the senior officials of major companies, could help.

Such a law would have to ensure that most of the public are protected from the predatory practices that have become common among some sections of the media against people in vulnerable situations.

Recently a House of Commons committee recommended jailing bankers for taking excessive risk.

Should we be hypocrites and have higher standards for local companies than foreign companies operating in Ireland?

While the big tax avoiders claim that they operate in accordance with the law, they are on dodgy ground when it comes to ethics.

As for Irish companies that have the dubious status of being non-tax resident, the official attitude appears to be that they operate in a place that was once called Limbo.

@ Robert Browne

The case of David Begg sums up the dysfunctional system with its limited or no accountability.

To be able to survive as the top trade union leader in the country while attacking bankers for the mess even though he sat 15 years in Dame Street trough boom and bust, takes a brass neck.

It also says so much about the surviving elite.

As for Anglo, until last February, the shuttered rump of a bank was not open for business but had 1,000 staff, 7 executives earning annual salary packages of €500,000+ and 36 other employees being paid more than €200,000. The prime minister of the Netherlands earns €144,000!

I don’t really think the US is so bad, was just responding to the banana republic thing ; )

Libel laws are a distraction.
The problem is that even when people have done wrong they cannot be called to account
Look at Blankfein in front of the US senate committee.
Bottom line is that money is power. Where individuals are allowed gather a lot of money they end up with a lot of power.
So, I would be against changing the libel laws – it won’t change anything. You can say what you want but nobody can do anything about it

@ All

A really really very Irish story!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/owner-who-sold-land-for-3m-buys-it-back-for-215000-29379229.html

@JG

“If the states so bad…why are thousands of Irish here illegally and thousands more on temporary visas ?”

2 separate issues. A country can have jobs available while being run by people of the moral calibre of Dick Cheney…

A question I have asked many people in Kerry is: Why is our government so soft on white collar crime. Dey sez, ah shure Mickey bi doeshnt dey be feerfull dat de incommin guvermint will shaft dem in revenge. Shure ishnt dey all makin a good livin outta da raket dey are runnin now. No need to and it is ditramintal ta pish in our own soup pot. Sure dat dilutes it and makes it taste bad.

In essence it is an inter-party and multi generational game. As long as we get our “fair share” we will continue to condone such behaviour.

@ Kevin Donoghue

If someone set off a bomb in the city centre causing a few miserable millions’ worth of damage we’d have reports about the ongoing investigations and appeals for witnesses to come forward. Why is white-collar crime treated so differently?

Oh, for amnesia. ‘Someone’ did set off no-warning bombs in Dublin city centre (and in Monaghan town), about forty years go, killing many people. No-one was ever charged, and vital evidence was shipped off to the RUC, who no doubt took good care of it.

(‘Someone’ clearly wasn’t the Northern loyalists, who couldn’t light a match by themselves. So who does that leave us with, detonating bombs on the eve of draconian proposed anti-IRA legislation in the Dáil…?)

Sober Look
Just what we need.

http://soberlook.com/2013/06/after-sticking-it-to-ireland-few-years.html

Tons of reading in the Sunday papers today.

Colm McCarthy with:

‘Look to the UK and US for how to conduct an inquiry into banks’

“There are four critical areas in which available information is absent or incomplete. These are: the lending behaviour of the individual banks in the years leading up to the bust; the performance of overseers; the policy response from government; and the role played by international bodies, particularly the European Central Bank (ECB).”

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/look-to-the-uk-and-us-for-how-to-conduct-an-inquiry-into-banks-29383423.html

@Fungus
How come Norway only has 4 million? Why doesn’t norn irn have 400 people per sq km?

@ francis

‘Am I the only ‘foreigner’ coming here….ever?’

Looks like you’ve been ‘coming here’ and rattling things up a bit in recent times. Good for you.

Must plead guilty to being ‘of Irish origin’ but not in an English speaking country. So I’m a foreigner here in this country but not ‘here’. Who cares?

Just gave the article by Colm McCarthy in the Indo to my wife, an energy executive here in non English speaking foreignland, to read. She’s not a foreigner here but is a complete foreigner ‘here’ ( on the blog). I told her it was posted by Gavin Kostik, who, I know, is English speaking but not of Irish origin and certainly not a foreigner ‘here’.

Having read the article, my wife said it’s obvious that’s what they ( you English speaking Irish and foreigners in Ireland) should do. A non-parliamentary enquiry with foreign experts or even judges.

Then you’d know what the number one priority reform of Irish ( foreign?) governance should be because it would all come out in the, almost certainly foreign, machine à laver!

Important to be real here.
Germany has increased electricity generation from coal because its cheap and it supports jobs. It also contributes to climate change.
Is this a scandal yes/no?
Is this on the same moral level as Anglo – yes/no?

Colm McCarthy’s article today in the Sindo calls for a focused enquiry into the banking fiasco, but I wonder are we again about to shoot ourselves in the foot.
Our reputation has been shredded worldwide this week and what will be the effect of this on decision makers as we seek to reenter bond markets? Any long drawn out enquiry will generate a lot of negative publicity for the foreseeable with unknown consequences for investment etc.
Just wondering.

Info headlines that Drummer intended to punch Lenny. It is clear from tape that this was metaphorical. Also if indeed Drummer intended to assault Lenny metaphorically or otherwise, what does this say for Henda’s axis of collusion between Anglo and FF?

Interesting interview with Drummer. Claims Anglo solvent in 2008 and he wants all relevant documents and tapes published. Claims Anglo did not seek guarantee and were not present on the night it was given.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Fromer-Anglo-Irish-Bank-chief-David-Drumm-apologizes-on-tapes-says-inquiry-needed-on-bank-guarantee-213713761.html

Mr Cormac Lucey has a write up in todays SBP.

“Fight the vested interests”

22:55, 29 June 2013 by Cormac Lucey

Second paragraph…

“A recurring feature of political reaction last week to the Anglo-Irish Bank tapes was heavy Fine Gael criticism of Fianna Fáil for its lax regulation of the banking sector.”

Just as I mentioned previously… this tribalism of political parties is working against the public.

@ Paul Quigley,

Thanks for the polite reply! I got that apparently a little bit into the wrong throat.

And just for reference, I am a Wessi, just living now for many (>5, to keep it somewhat vague : – ) years in East Germany, after many years in upstate NY, US. I am NOT representing the average Eastern German thinking, more like a global engineer mongrel of many streaks, trying to understand things in general, not wedded to any social, political, local cause.

@ Eureka

Could you be a little bit more specific on the German coal claim (I assume you mean lignite), including specifically how that translates into “more jobs”?

While I do not find the title “a very Irish story” as inappropriate or offensive, I am afraid that it is actually a lot more the “normal states of affairs”, nearly everywhere and everytime, as we would like it to be. That civilization often just runs skin deep.

THe Anglo story has been front page news in all German press this week. The ‘selling the country away’ by cohorts Drumm &Co is compared to Ray Burke’s changes in legislation back in the day which meant that benefits to Ireland from foreign companies extracting were reduced to little or nothing.
[Behind a paywall] http://www.genios.de/presse-archiv/artikel/SZ/20130629/abgezockt/A54887600.html

Reading every German press article on the Anglo Tapes that I can, it seems that there is a sympathy for the Irish people who were ill served by financial custodians and politicians.

Working and living between Ireland and Germany for 30 years now, it’s a dreadful episode. However, it is good that it has come to light. Truth will out.

Apropo emigration: FDP-Chef Rösler sagte heute:
‘Kommt nach Deutschland! Macht eine Ausbildung’ ; Come to Germay we’ll train you : http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article117567983/Kommt-nach-Deutschland-Macht-eine-Ausbildung.html

On governace : Sat in Buswells for a few hours observing the behaviour of our body politic prior to the IBRC midnight promissory note gig in the Dail. That behaviour and the scenes thereafter say everything about hoe Ireland is run. Until that changes, all bets are off.

We don’t need new laws.

We need a riot.

@John Foody, Eureka

I don’t accept that there is something unique to Irish people that allows their government to be subverted by powerful interests.

I am Irish. I am offended by the above ‘A very Irish story’. Statements like that, along with ‘That’s so Irish’ etc etc Go a long way to reinforcing the kind of ‘Group think’ fatalist thinking you are presumably against. i.e That poor policy, governance, decisions are inherintly Irish, that they are part of us. They are not.

All I can say is that the pair of you either aren’t Irish, or have been living abroad or under a rock most of your lives.

Ireland has chronic problems with its civil society. This goes back centuries. Many have blamed our social mores, political culture, laws, history, etc, etc. But whatever the cause, this country has a very, very serious corruption problem. It has been the cause of recession, emigration, misery and decline for centuries.

The old line was to blame everything on the British. The new line is the Germans. Personally, I see the British a bit players in a very Irish saga of constant exploitation of the ordinary people by amoral and rapacious networks of elites. (I am Irish by the way, of impeccable bogger pedigree I assure you.)

The elites were all Irish. Sometimes they called themselves Anglo-Irish, or Catholic, or “Atlantic” in an effort to ignore their moral and social responsibility towards their nation and people. But they were Irish all along. The problems and dysfunctional systems they created have lead to the destruction of what should be a successful country many time over.

Irish elites cause the problems. The Irish people suffer the consequences. This is a very Irish problem. It is a problem with our culture, society, laws, and state. To call it “racist” is to run away and hide from the reality of history and of the present. It is a child’s response.

I am Irish. I see these libel laws, and wider issues, as very Irish problems. Indeed uniquely so; I am unable to point towards any other society, past or present, with quite this type of chronic dysfunction, and which yet is apparently unable to realise it has it or has been so successful at denying it.

Perhaps those who see themselves as “Atlantic-ian” or “Donnybrook-ian” or “Gonzaga-ian” see things differently. But since I’ve never been to any of these mindsets or places, I see things the way most most Irish people see them.

Fiatluxjnr wrote:

“Our reputation has been shredded worldwide this week and what will be the effect of this on decision makers as we seek to reenter bond markets? Any long drawn out enquiry will generate a lot of negative publicity for the foreseeable with unknown consequences for investment etc”.

What people (and by people, I don’t mean any one particular party, dogma or persuasion, . . . but rather what I mean, are people in the collective sense, or all views, persuasions and tendencies), . . . basically need to comprehend, is that Ireland is going to find itself right back here where we left off with Drumm and the boys, in roughly two decades hence.

That is just an unfortunate fact.

What we have in Ireland, is an episodic saga, much like that of the Alien movie series, whereby the character of Ripley, played by Sigorney Weavey tries desperately to convince people to leave the Alien stranded on the cold, remote, frozen planetary outpost, . . . but inevitably, some guy in the ‘company’, always finds a way to keep one of the Aliens in a jam jar, so it can be preserved for future study, and ultimately transported back to planet earth, so its DNA can be extracted and understood better by scientists.

In a way, that is exactly the situation that existed in Ireland in 2008.

On the one hand, there was something that was un-controllable, and all that one could do was try to leave it behind on its own frozen, planetary back water. And on the other hand, the company wanted to capture it alive, and preserve its DNA for science.

So you have in the series of Alien movies, it is like another famous movie, Ground Hog Day, starring Bill Murray, as Phil Connors, the Pittsburgh TV weatherman who is destined to repeat the same day and experiences again and again. Each time, Sigorney Weavers character encounters more and more strange ways that the Alien, has managed to ‘sneak’ abroad the last departing space barge, and hide somewhere in the lower decks, or in the air conditioning duct work, only to plant itself into some innocent victim, and go on living.

Our president, Michael D. Higgins is quoted in today’s Sunday Independent newspaper, as saying that it doesn’t reflect the truth about Ireland and Irish people. Mr. David Drumm himself, goes on record also today, and reassures us, we have all got the wrong impression.

Perhaps, both of those points of view have some merit.

Perhaps, there is merit also, in quietening things down, so that our little elves in the NTMA, can get along with their important business of getting down our bond yields, and putting the Irish state back on a sustainable borrowing path once more – so that we can recover our economic sovereignty again.

But do recall, in those famous Alien movies, how there was always some period of calm and prosperity, between the various crises, where the little funny looking guys seemed contented inside their little jam jars, and people said, we have this under control. What we probably need is a Ripley type character in Ireland, to remind us from time to time, the kind of beast that we may still have lurking around inside our laboratories.

I’ve endeavored to play a role such as that, as best as I could do and giving my awfully limited platform and resources, at this forum and some others, since the late 2000s. But we’ve reached a ‘tipping point’ at least today, in that for once in the past five years, I was able to open an Irish broadsheet, and read something that made a lot of sense. It means now though for guys like myself, and many more out there and abroad, we can kind of close this chapter and move on with our existences.

I will just quote this paragraph, from journalist John Drennan, because I think that in his various articles today in the Sunday Independent newspaper, Mr. Drennan and many of his colleagues have finally grasped the fundamentals (I only wanted to suggest to the team at Independent News and Media, that they pick up a box set some time, of the movies I have referenced – and well done to all the team of journalists. Anything that happens now, is by the by. The cat is well and truly out of the bag. Finally.

The tapes also display a government obsessed by spin rather than substance, that spent more time planting stories than investigating the wolves that lay hidden within.

Brian O’ Hanlon
–

I think there’s a problem at times with economists (no this isn’t an anti economist rant) assuming that problems can be solved with ‘better information’, and downplaying distributional, ideological, political factors(politicians do, and will always, want to get elected. Better information wont change that)
So the claims being made by some above (not necessarily in the OP, but some of the following comments) that this is a problem specific to Ireland seems off. This is the way it works everywhere, with varying degrees of difference. Not that reform isn’t worthy and useful, or that better policy making wouldn’t be a positive, but there is no panacea

I think.on balance it’s more of a deeply flawed state than anything else. Ireland’s institutions were not up to running the Euro experiment in a Minsky type breakdown. Booms are so dangerous and this was el gordo. The usual crisis responses- Deny everything, send dissenters to London, Connemara or the nuns, circle the FF wagons – were hopelessly inadequate. There are so many gaps in the protection the legal system affords to citizens. The whole private financial sector was bet on the boom. Why? Very poor standards around accountability. Collapses are abour how to split losses. Ruthlessly exposed.

Ratcheting up of risk in a system that grew on the back of systemic global deregulation . Like that intro from the 80s tv show Hart to Hart. “When they met it was murder”.

It is wonderful that these tapes are making waves in Germany. Others ask the questions their Irish equivalents can’t or won’t. Other than Gavin Kostick who else in the arts world has taken this on?

The people deserve way better. And now over to Con for the sports news.

@ Sporthog,

I do own a copy of Gaia, Gregory Bateson and follow Stewart Brand, Kevin Kelly on Google+. I like reading Jay Forrester’s old papers from time and time, and know a good few people in architecture and computer science, who have been influenced by such material. I’m happiest when focused and busy working my brain, on those matters. But I think, what has happened in Ireland since 2008, is that Irish citizens have all got a crash course in economics 101.

I’ll be honest, when I first met Sean Fitzpatrick back in ’08 at the Anglo headquarters, I’d never heard of any other bank in Ireland, except than Allied or BOI. Someone told me, he’s Anglo’s chairman, and I thought what the heck is ‘Anglo’. I was told he was a genius, and an important man, and that was more than good enough for me. I wouldn’t have had a clue what the NTMA did either. That was how simple my world outlook was at that time.

I do recall, my best buddy from my old school days, who was trained as an accountant, told me at some stage in 2008 that there was a recession coming – and my attitude was, I hated him for saying that. He was telling me something I just didn’t care to listen to. As professor Lucey mentioned above, there were holes in balance sheets in ’08, but if someone had shown me the hole, however large, I genuinely would not have wanted to acknowledge it either.

And that’s what the Anglo guys do mention on the tapes also – even after horrendous days of €1.0 billion loses of depositor base – it’s all in the head. What was going on in my head, and that of many at that time, was we didn’t want to know. I remember hating that best friend of mine so much too, in ’08, for mentioning the facts to me. So I can definitely understand how a Ripley, person instead DoF, wouldn’t have been welcome at all.

Maybe we all needed to just grow up a little as Irish men and women, but maybe we’ve all had to grow up a little too fast also. The guys in Anglo, certainly did have a world-weariness about them, a global view, which few others in sections in Irish society did. But look at what has happened since that. We’ve all taken a huge interest in Europe, in the economy and everyone in Irish society has.

That’s why its so refreshing to read a whole new, no-nonsense kind of Irish journalism in the broadsheets of June 2013. And in no small measure, thanks to the efforts of people such as Philip, Karl, Colm, Kevin and many others. They’ve earned their keep in the past few years. BOH.

@ All

FYI

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_thisweek.xml

The views of the former DPP, James Hamilton, are of particular interest.

The scenario that will unfold is fairly easy to predict. The legislation will be passed to enable a Dáil inquiry to take place, when established it will create much heat and probably very little light and risk compromising legal proceedings and may, indeed, be halted pending the outcome of particular cases.

In the meantime, the country has improved its ranking – already very respectable – with regard to the ease of doing business. Not a very Irish story, perhaps (a comment which is simply a manner of speaking e.g “I am a stranger here myself”).

http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/ireland/

N.B. Poor rankings in relation to obtaining construction permits and in relation to enforcing contracts.

@ All

On the general theme, Conor Brady, former editor of the Irish Times, has ten suggestions for reform.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/ten-reforms-enda-kenny-should-bring-in-now-1.1446806?page=1

All eminently sensible ideas except for this bit;

“The same rules for attendance at work should apply for TDs as for other public servants!”

It is this misunderstanding which lies at the heart of where things went wrong.

In Praise of the Unknown Blogger

For grumpy.

“Known unto NSA”

For he cometh and goeth and none, save the mods, shall know of him.
For he is a he and to speculate otherwise shows thoughtfulness but not understanding of the blogosphere.
For he keepeth his remarks pithy.
For in largeness he is rooted like the oak but in particulars he is flexible like the willow.
For he talks about what he doth know and abhors what he does not know.
For he keepeth faith in the subject of the thread.
For he saith not things which he cannot substantiate in the depths of his understanding.
And his substantiation doth not be that of words placed into search.
Nor in referring to what has happened only this day.

For he does not seek to justify his righteousness in petty contestation for victory in a simple post but considereth the responses of the other in the terms in which they are the strongest.
And he is severe yet polite in his responses.
And where he wishes to ask for understanding he will ask.
And his range of cultural being is rich.
For he doth not post in the interests of others save himself and the greater good.
For he is keen to help where help is sought.
And he respondeth particularly.
For he is well read but not presumptuous.
For he talks but is not garrulous.

And many things do not always simply remind him of but the one thing: yet he can take many things and consider coherency.
For what he giveth is given openly and does not ask for reward.
For he thinketh both of himself and of his fellow people.
For he knoweth that the electronic words he leaves are but tiny particles on a great ocean and yet they mayeth have life.
For he is capable of saying, ‘I was wrong’.
For his contributions enlarge.
For when he is present he is valued and when he is absent he is missed.

@Eureka
@OMF

‘It’ ( the word Irish or ‘Irish’) was used to describe something shambolic…. and corrupt IN Ireland’ ( OMF). Exactly!

It is indeed ‘not worth getting bogged down in this’….. distraction. Reasonable man!

Just to close off what you raised, Eureka, I’m Irish and ‘Irish’ and could have another nationality should I choose in the short administrative time it takes, and choose not to, but I do NOT have to explain to anyone, Irish, ‘Irish’ or ‘foreign’, what this means. And I live my life on the basis that they will not prejudge what I have to say on the basis of my nationality. If they wish to draw conclusions about what ONE Irishman feels or is like AFTER I’ve spoken or exhibited behaviour, that’s their privilege/problem. Extrapolating from there to what Ireland is like or what should be done to get us out of the sh*t we’re in would be a mistake. Still, they do and I can’t really blame them. We all do.

Let me leave you with a quote from now retired Admiral Mike McMullen, xho may or may not have been ‘Irish’ ( probably like Reagan, Kennedy or Obama to greater or lesser extents):
‘We should worry less about communicating our actions and more about what our actions communicate.’

@GK 18.59 +1
would you take a commission for BEB?

I’m with Eureka, if nothing else cultural arguments are lazy and generally little more than poorly connected historical anecdotes and speculation. Sure only 8 years ago we were finding ‘cultural’ reasons for the boom!
And if you accept Irelands current position is the result primarily of ‘cultural’ factors, then you have to hold that standard globally, underdevelopment is the result of culture, not a complex mix of historical accidents, institutions etc the poor are culturally inferior.. so on and so forth
Once again there’s nothing wrong with the argument, but it needs to be backed up with some evidence (or are we in Kevin Myers territory? Not being willing to think past the first link in the chain)

@ OMF
‘Ireland has chronic problems with its civil society. This goes back centuries’
Check out the history books. The Irish were ‘beyond the Pale’, that is, categorised as unfit to participate in civil society. I hesitate to say, we, because, like most people, I haven’t a breeze who my ancestors were beyond a couple of generations. But I know what social exclusion means, and I don’t like it, whatever form it takes.
There was no national consciousness until the econonomic and political conditions allowed for it to be formed. Contrary to your point about ‘Catholic elites’, the Catholic affilkiation was, for centuries, the primary marker of exclusion from civil society.
Why are British sovereigns prohibited from marrying Catholics ? Something to do with Spain perhaps. As the saying went (or should have gone), ‘when Britain sneezes, Ireland catches a cold’. Our dysfunctions are not all of our own doing. O’Connell’s campaign for Catholic emancipation and Davitt’s land League were the foundation stones of our existence as a free people.
This is another crisis of our state. We have had them before and we will have them again. The outcome is undetermined. It’s all to play for, because crisis means opportunity, for those who can read the game. As Pierre Bourdieu says, anyone can see where the ball is, but only the excellent player can feel, in his/her body, where the ball is going to be. How will the hundreds of thousands be (re)employed ?

We have populist politicians, but we don’t have popular democracy. We still have our Pale, and it’s high time we took down the fences which divide us from one another. It’s not for nothing that the US is called the land of opportunity, because despite all its many flaws, the focus in more on what a person can do, then who he or she is. They have a black President, while we don’t have even one traveller TD. If we can fix that sort of thing, we can certainly sort out the banks.

Your manifesto is missing something, people need to believe things can change!! Using the term ‘Irish’ in that way is part of the problem. It says that these problems are fixed, inherent and unchangeable to those who claim to be ‘Irish’, and adds to fatalism within Ireland. ‘Ah shure this is Ireland, they’re all at it’ etc

I disagree. All I hear, day in day out, is how “mature” and “sophisticated” Ireland and its democracy are. How we are a shining light of openness, democracy, and the rule of law in Western European. Model european citizens, etc.

No. We have deep systemic civic issues about which we are in complete denial. These libels laws are but one example. They are abused by criminals to intimidate those who would expose them. The DPP is perpetuating this criminal culture by pressurising the independent, by saying that it is OK to put the needs of a creaking and amoral legal apparatus before the public good — It is not.

The law, its societies, and the four courts are a massive part of the problem in this country. A massive part. They are tools of abuse, employed by the wealthy to exploit others. Judges are as much a part of the golden circle as the likes of Liam Lawlor. We should recognise such problems, and move to deal with them. Appointing foreign judges and indeed, setting up a new court system altogether, would remove much of the corruption and clientelism from the law here. Same goes for accountants, auditors, bankers and the rest of the professions.

@ Fiat
Nice link.
But Angela had better cop on. Her country doubled arms sales to despotic Arab regimes in 2012:
http://rt.com/news/germany-arms-sales-arabs-407/

And before you jump in Francis – don’t shoot the RT messenger here.

Sanctimonious Angela makes me vomit

@ John Foody

‘…. ‘ very Irish’, despite being some of the better ‘Irish’ You with me?’

Umm! Trying very, very hard but you’re losing me, fast.

I agree with OMF that ‘we have deep systemic issues about which we are are in denial’. I think this is true in a number of countries and states, including this one, France. Which most definitely defines its nationhood and statehood and fast-declining position in the world in ( language and) cultural terms. So it’s not just Irish. Or ‘Irish’.

rf contends that ‘cultural arguments are lazy and generally little more than poorly connected historical anecdotes and speculation. Indeed they can be. And often are. In Ireland and here. As well as food for populist politicians in whose interest it is to obfuscate and divert citizen’s attention away from ugent systemic reform.

Just one critical suggestion for ( the one most likely to change Irish Governance for the better) was the question asked by this post’s originator! Whether it’s Irish or ‘Irish’, French or ‘Français’, foreign or ‘ours’. Or even theirs. I guess!

@Mickey Hickey

May I, quite reluctantly, interject the point that more than one million of the Irish who know they’re Irish on our island consider themselves British as well.

Maybe contradictory, probably not, but true ( a ‘fact’) nonetheless!

Now, before it’s too late, what single reform would improve Irish governance?

If, as an Irish citizen ‘abroad’ (geographically but still Irish, or ‘Irish’ or whatever) for well over thirty years, I’d certainly use that vote. Would it change/improve Irish governance systemically? Well it might. It just might at that!

What I take from that, a day later, is that there has never been some Italian Francesca or French Francois been here around,

and that the Marios from Cyprus recently here was an on invitation exception.

Has any of you been ever to any other european economics blogs?

Eureka,

do you have a link that you have ever complained about any other weapons sale or military intervention of anybody else to anybody else?

In general I think I have to care about my own innocent poor, who do not even take the social minimum, they are entitled to..

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/scham-fuehrt-zu-verdeckter-armut-jeder-dritte-berechtigte-verzichtet-auf-hartz-iv_aid_1030494.html

@Eureka
“There’s nothing uniquely Irish about any of this.”
Like others I am astounded by your tortoise reaction. I have lived in a few other countries and we are right up there with the most corrupt of them in how pathetically the population kowtows to the corrupt, the venal, the strokers. All over the country these shysters get reelected time and again despite manifest failings (and more hidden shallownesses).

Lowry, the Flynns, the puck of Kilorglin, Vatman, Serial-Director-of-bankrupted-companies…

We got the regulator we deserved, from the party that invented cute hoorism and continues to vie to be the largest party in the state. The stroke attitude pervades the civil service, the politicians and the banks. The guarantee was an attempt at a massive stroke.

Hiding behind a salt of the earth green jersey is part of the problem. These people don’t get the contempt they deserve because the green wagons circle and hush everything up.

So much for EIB programmes …..apparently Angela has scuppered any plans for opening the taps. Some interesting comments from European players….

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_01/07/2013_506720

@ Veronica

The libel laws are not particularly relevant in this context.

I recommend listening to the tape of the interview with the previous DPP linked to above. He deals in detail with all the pertinent legal aspects, including the dilemma of the DPP in the matter of intervening with regard to press coverage i.e. doing so might in practice, lend credence to a defence case that the right to a fair trial might have been compromised.

Irrespective of the type of enquiry being held, it may have to halt its deliberations once criminal trials have begun.

The major wrong turn took place, as I have pointed out on numerous occasions, when the distinction between the duties of politicians and those of senior public servants were blurred in the current legislation. The legislation is being largely ignored in practice (apart from the mechanical production of “strategy statements”, accompanied by “mission” statements and “vision” statements, in lavishly illustrated brochures). But that is not the answer.

There is no impediment to politicians of all parties addressing the inadequacies of the current structures. They do not want to do so because they made common cause in introducing them. The reasons are evident. Responsibility is so blurred that no one is responsible. And the moral hazard associated with linking the salaries of those charged with dispensing public money with those charged with raising it from the taxpayer is so obvious as to hardly require explanation.

What is most striking in the recent coverage is how the media both in Germany and Ireland have bought into the Merkel “narrative” with regard to “solidarity” i.e. a kind of exercise in charity. Such an analysis would be fatal to the European project if countries bought into it at a political level. It is a question of collective responsibility for the proper implementation of economic and monetary union to which all member states have signed up and the successful running of a single currency to which 18 are currently committed.

The Anglo tapes are a godsend to Merkel and the CDU/CSU only weeks away from the federal elections. They will milk it for all they are worth.

cf. the FAZ coverage

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/vetternwirtschaft-der-irische-filz-und-die-banker-12264408.html

When it comes to “elites”, every country has them. Ireland is unique in having one that is fully documented – and publicly sanctioned to the extent that it is hardly remarked upon – on the “official” side. It includes the universities. It is time that at least this element was subjected to critical examination and something better arrived at.

N.B. Google Translate is only approximate in its computer generated translations.

Nearly 5yrs post guarantee, is there only 3 peeps on charges? Seems a little low.

I remember the gardai raiding Anglo, were similar raids made on the other banks? It’s lucky all our ministers, civil servants and central bankers were squeaky clean – though it would have been nice if someone had made notes.

@ Veronica

If we do not keep the debate about process and not personalities, we will never get anywhere IMHO.

I wonder if Trichet could be compelled to attend the Dáil committee when it is established to prove the ECB’s “innocence”.

It is your country, it is your fight, and of all people it is the holy duty of the tenured people to lead the charge.

Amen! Time to leave the euro, print punts, wind up the banks, and move on.

OMF

How can you go from thinking there’s something inherent in our Irishness that caused this crisis, and then want to leave the Euro and go it alone?!

@ Brian

FYI

http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Journalistic_sources_ENG.pdf

The Independent makes its living selling advertising in the newspaper. The more readers it attracts the more advertising revenue it brings in. The tapes were a most welcome boost to circulation. The person that leaked the tapes may have been altruistic or jockeying for personal advantage.

The Gov’t has been embarrassed and will now put resources into stopping further leaks and intimidating the media by using the DPP and the “Fair Trial” ploy. There is little doubt but that they will continue to drag their feet and display a distinct lack of enthusiasm for bringing white collar criminals to justice.

The damage done to Ireland in Germany is directed at the Irish government and the banksters. The Irish taxpayers are footing 100% of the cost of ensuring that losses attributed to Irish banks are made good by the Irish Gov’t (taxpayers). Public opinion in Germany will now make it difficult for any German Gov’t to support any initiative to prop up Ireland either directly or indirectly through the ECB, EMU or related agencies. It will have knock on effects on the rest of the PIIGS since it feeds into popular perception that their governments are incompetent otherwise they would not be in their present predicament.

As to Deutschland Uber Alles it was written originally by Hoffmann von Fallersleben (1798-1874) with the emphasis on love of country along the lines Mna na hEireann, Mother Machree, Mother Russia. Sure it would bring tears to your eyes. We all know that the Nazis perverted the national anthem (since 1871) and the age old sacred Hindu icon, the swastika.

The Anglo boys understood all this and were using it as a love poem in honour of Germany. They knew the Irish taxpayers were making good on the loans and the German inflow of funds would buy them a few more months at the trough.

PR guy, get to work on the message before all is lost.

@ DOCM
“The protection of journalistic sources is one of the basic conditions for press freedom. Without such protection, sources may be deterred from assisting the press in informing the public on matters of public interest. As a result the vital public-watchdog role of the press may be undermined, and the ability of the press to provide accurate and reliable information be adversely affected. An order of source disclosure … cannot be compatible with Article 10 unless it is justified by an overriding requirement in the public interest.”’

The freedom of the Fourth Estate was hard won, but it is not really as secure as it looks these days. The Indo is part of a private sector media empire, which is the dominant form of mainstream news-mongering in today’s world. As I understand Leveson, the business model has very little to do with democracy, and everything to do with market dominance.

Information is something you buy, for strategic reasons, and/or because you can sell it to the public. One of the less respectable reasons why sources are protected is that bribery has been involved. IMHO, media barons represent exactly the same sort of threat as bankers, and as my mate Gar says, ‘send in the sniffer dogs first’. .

@ Paul Ferguson

I am clearly misunderstanding you. But if all deposits must be backed by CB money how can there possibly be a competition on rates. The only differentiating factor between retail banks would be expenses of admin, the PO could undercut them all.

If deposits must be backed by CB money how can they support the economy? I really don’t understand your argument. It is either extremely erudite or it is in error. The fact that no economy in the world be it capitalist or communist follows your argument is circumstantial evidence at least that you are in error.

@ Brian, Paul Quigley,

This IT column makes the point more eloquently than I ever could.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/ontherecord/2013/07/01/committing-acts-of-journalism/

‘Watchdog of the public interest’ is only one of the roles of media in our society and unfortunately, an ever diminishing one because of the financial straits in which the traditional newspaper model finds itself all over the world and which threaten its very survival as a media form. If the model can’t be made to turn a ‘profit’ then inevitably it will die, and with it a tradition of standards and provenance in news reporting which is key to the functioning of any democratic society.

Establishing and verifying facts is a hugely time-consuming and expensive process. The pressure is on the journalists to establish the case for publication ‘in the public interest’, especially of hugely politically sensitive stories which could literally bankrupt their organisation, financially and in terms of credibility, if they get even the smallest detail wrong.

So to answer your question directly: there are all sorts of reasons why the Indo political editor, Fionnan Sheehan, may have refused to answer the question as to how long his newspaper had the tapes prior to publication, not least the protection of sources. Brown’s question was wholly impertinent – and irrelevant – in the context of the tapes story. The issue of newspaper ownership/dominance – which appeared to underly the question – is one that is more properly directed towards the government of the day and its operation of media policy in this state.

@veronica
Thank you for the link to the IT article by Jim Carroll.
” As for the sources, I think that will come out in the very near future” intriguing comment from Jim Carroll.

@Brian,

Yes Brian, it probably will and as there is more than one (obvious) possibility, it would be fun to speculate. But that would be meaningless at this stage and only distracts from the import of what has been revealed which is what we should be focussed on. Personally, I hope the sources of the Indo story are never revealed because that creates a risk that their lives, and careers, will be ruined; just adding to the carnage of the ‘innocent’ in this debacle.

I’m bemused, to say the least, by the way in which various elite figures in both politics and the media have sought to frame the tapes story to suit their own agenda. Politics may be hypocrisy dressed up as respectability, but the depth of hypocrisy displayed in this instance is breathtaking. The problem for the government – who hold all the cards because that is the way our system works from one election to the next – is that the ‘economic voter’ may be none too enthralled to see their friends and neighbours lose their family homes to repossession over the coming months because of the political failure to face up to the personal indebtedness crisis other than writing the script for personal debt resolution in the bankers’ favour. And then they’ll think about those tapes…

@JohnCorcoran
I gave some thought to how the landlords who number less than the small business renters could have bought rent law made in heaven from the landlord’s perspective. The answer is that the money outweighed the lost votes.

The distortions built up on all fronts which have accumulated since 1922 are leading to a collapse of the state.

Looking at the comment section on the audio tapes in the Independent I am struck by the number of comments relating the leak to causing damage to FF at the beginning of the election campaign (2 yrs). In any other country FF would be toast, never to be heard of again. FG because of its inaction since it was elected would join them at the next election. We might as well get ready for the replay, may God help us.

@ Mickey Hickey

Are you sure? A lot of FF voters did very well out of the Celtic Tiger bubble and they have not gone away, you know! Nor have the FG voters in similar circumstances.

The Portuguese government seems on the verge of collapse as the foreign minister has now also resigned. The FT coverage has this very neat encapsulation of the dilemma faced by countries in the euro area whose credit has run out.

“In the wake of the dual resignations, the centre-left Socialists, the main opposition party, have stepped up their calls for early elections. They, like many in Portugal, want to ease austerity by renegotiating the adjustment programme.

Others question how far this is feasible. “People in government and the opposition talk about austerity and the bailout without really addressing the alternatives,” said Pedro Santa-Clara, a professor of finance at Lisbon’s Universidade Nova.

“The only real alternatives are to co-operate with your creditors in applying the bailout, as Mr Gaspar did, or to default. The fact that something is painful does not mean that the alternative is not even more painful.”

That’s about it! Luckily, the Irish economy is that much stronger and in a better position to allow those currently in charge to give the right answer.

Governance pre-crash = Governance post-crash; statsig******************

One reform ….. hmmm? Just one reform ….hmmm? Only one teeny weeny reform …. hmmmm?

One won’t do it. The system of upper_echelon un_accountability is dense, protected by the legal system, and powerful. Hence, the entire system needs to be brought down …. and then re_built. Revolution anysupines?

@DOCM
Looking at my little world the losers out number the beneficiaries by 30 to 1. The closest case to me involved a sale of land with planning permission for 64 standalone houses. Closed in the fall of 2007, the developer went from visiting construction in a Mercedes to cutting the overgrown grass himself by 2010 at which time he disappeared. Even the winners lost. Most of the construction workers are abroad or on benefits in Ireland.

@ Mickey Hickey

Any idea how much the developer paid for the site? It should interest everyone as the seller still has the cash while the taxpayer, in all likelihood, is left holding the baby for the write-down in the associated bank debt.

Winners and losers there certainly are! In a local context, the losers may seem to outnumber the winners by the factor that you suggest. But the rise in private wealth as reflected in the most recent statistics and the holding steady, indeed slight increase, in taxation revenues, suggest that this is not true for the economy as a whole.

Those who did well on the carousel last time round sense that it is starting up again. Hence the return to popularity of the carnival barkers.

@ Mickey Hickey

All very true! But who elected the government(s) in question against a background of politicians trying to out oubid one another on a broad range of policies unthinkingly accepted as a “good thing”?

All adults of voting age with the individual responsibility to inform themselves on the worth of the policies being proposed.

As the successful running of the Irish presidency demonstrates, we have the capacity to act when others are setting the agenda. We seem incapable of setting one for ourselves.

From RTE website:

Speaking on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, Mr Doherty asked whether the public interest directors on Anglo Irish Bank’s board were aware of the tapes, and if so, why they were not brought to the attention of the Department of Finance.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0704/460475-anglo/

@Brian O’Hanlon

As I have mentioned many times before – there is not such animal as ‘public interest director’ in Irish Corporate Law.

The term is a PR spin and has no legal legitimacy whatsoever.