George Lee resigns from Fine Gael and his Dail seat

Economics meets Politics and RealPolitik … tuff ol lesson for George. Phone in on the Joe Duffy goes 86% [11,000 + say YES George] in support of George ……… recent polls show 75% disenchanted with political system …….. maybe George has done the state a little service – hope the price to pay the piper not too excessive ……

It’s bad timing as it will overshadow the real story of the day – the IMF pointing out to Brian Lenihan last April that NAMA wouldn’t achieve it’s objective of getting credit flowing into the economy. Not just the IMF but Mr Seelig (soon to be appointed to the NAMA board) of the IMF.

So, they told the government last April did they?

It can’t possibly be true because in a post made by Minister Lenihan on…..

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/second-stage-reply-speech-nama-minister-brian-lenihan/

….put there on 14th October 2009 he said “The establishment of NAMA removes the riskiest assets from the banks balance sheets which frees the banks to restore the flow of credit to the real economy.”

So that’s alright then. These documents are obviously wrong.

LOL ….. well I would be laughing if it wasn’t so serious.

Well done to the Irish Times though on getting the FOI act to actually work for once.

As for George………. I expect something will turn up.

Lee seems very angry that he was not involved in economic policy development.

Perhaps Andrew McDowell of Fine Gael, who has posted here in the past, could tell us how FG formulate economic policy.

@ JohnTheOptimist

John,

I guess you forget all the predictions you get wrong!

Maybe he was naive but then we don’t know what he was promised. Either way its bad news.

I admire GL’s bottle in both entering politics and leaving it – especially since the latter does make him seem like the Roy Keane of Irish politics. It’s a loss to politics no doubt. Clearly he must have been very disenchanted with the neglect of his talents by FG.

I presume he knew quitting would make him seem a bit eccentric/unreliable/egotistical/impatient in many people’s eyes but chose to do it anyway because, as he says, he was only in it to influence policy and he wasn’t doing that. While I genuinely wouldn’t question his motives, I do question whether he has tried hard enough to exercise the influence he desired, eg by floating a few trial balloons, or indeed by accepting Enda Kenny’s last minute offer of a front bench post. George seems to have considered this too little too late, but if he wanted influence then that shouldn’t have mattered.

+1 LorcanRK

You were too honest for politics George and have too much integrity.You made the correct decision today,only crooks in Irish politics.I hope you get your old job back in RTE.Its about time good honest law abiding citizens were acknowledged.Good Luck George.

Don’t know how he can go back to RTE in a journalist role, he’s clearly shown his political opinion and viewpoint. Possibly he could do more like a commentator type role (ie David McWilliams), but not reporting or investigative journalism.

As people have noted above, he made RTE look like idiots, he’s made FG look like idiots, and he’s made the people of South Dublin look somewhat like idiots. He may have had good and honest reasons for the decisions he’s made over the last year, but he’s fast running out of allies, in spite of some of the slightly OTT eulogising going on today from some quarters.

Veronica,

Why not cat shows?

Meeeoowww.

@ Greg

“Is that how RTE works?”

Yes.

It would also fit with the career paths of many of our longer-term politicians, who are on fully pensionable “Oireachtas leave” from their state-protected jobs, some of them for over 30 years….

Eoin,

I knew it applied to teachers (which I think is a disgrace).

So someone in the employed in private sector entering politics has to put their career/job on the line.

Someone employed in the “Public Sector” has a guaranteed job/pension if it doesn’t work out.

Maybe that explains why there are so many teachers and publicans in the Dail.

One aspect of today’s decision is that public funds will have to be spent on another election.

I get the impression that George packed it in early on. He had very little to say for months.

He appears to have been better at reporting the news than coming forward with innovative proposals and he had a public platform that no other backbench TD had.

I have no reason to be negative about him. I was wondering before Christmas what had happened him and thought that he may be involved in developing policy.

It shouldn’t be forgotten, that for economic policy to work, there must be fundamental reform in governance, accountability, transparency, the public services and the private sector vested interest system.

Sporthog,

Thanks for that.

So yet again it is the old entrenched vs the young enslaved.

I wrote in the distant past about George Lee being a negative Moany Mary and this confirms it for me. He love bashing everything and I’d guess that he is poor at forming constructive policies. I know he is talented but some people are progressive and some people are observers and followers. This is also highlighted by the fact that he resigned without a plan of what he is going to do next.

George Lee should be ashamed of himself. He achieved NOTHING in his short political career. Now the tax payer has to pay for a by election. He should foot the cost of this. He never had anything worthwhile to say. I attended a vary boring talk he gave and he had nothing constructive to say about the economy, an area he thought he specialised in. He continually said ‘we need to make a plan’ and when he was asked what would his plan consist of he couldn’t answer. USELESS. Shame on him for wasting the tax payers money. GOOD RIDDANCE.

Isn’t it also very likely that, back in May 2009 when he quit RTE, he was convinced, as most of the media were, that the FF/Green government would fall in a few months and that he’d be riding in a Ministerial Mercedes by year end?

Now its quite likely that there won’t be an election until Spring 2102. Most probably, FG/Labour will win that election and George would have got his Ministerial Mercedes then. But, while lesser mortals, like Bruton, Coveney, Varadkar and others, might be willing to put in the hard slog required of an Opposition TD for a couple of years before the Spring 2012 election, in anticipation of obtaining their reward then, such a life would not be fitting for a superstar like George.

Anyway, I read today that the RTE greyhound racing correspondent has quit to set up an Irish version of Racing Post, so there might be a vacancy for George in RTE after all.

George Lee is NOT a young person. He may not be redfaced with gluttony and over 60 but he is not young. I’m younger than him by a good bit and I’M not young. maybe it’s a symptom of an intergenerational war between those aroiund 60 and those around 50 😉

@ALL
Irish establishment spin machine on full cycle:

John the optimist
“”Good riddance!
FG are far better off without him.
Under no circumstances should RTE have him back.
…George the Eternal Pessimist…”

Veronica
“The way he left his RTE bosses looking like prize idiots…
…. his decision to flee the Fine Gael party – because he wasn’t getting his icecream now… suggests…he doesn’t appear to have the temperament for politics. For his own sake, it’s just as well that he has decided to go now”

Eoin:
“As people have noted above [the people being other establishment lobbyists] he made RTE look like idiots, he’s made FG look like idiots, and he’s made the people of South Dublin look somewhat like idiots.”

John of Dublin
“I wrote in the distant past about George Lee being a negative Moany Mary and this confirms it for me. He love bashing everything…”

Naomi
“He never had anything worthwhile to say….he had nothing constructive to say about the economy, an area he thought he specialised in.
GOOD RIDDANCE.”

But my favourite spins were these ones from John the Optimist:
“My guess is that he quit because he clearly sees that the economy is on the brink of a major upturn and…simply couldn’t cope with it.”

“I think all the political parties will think twice now about foisting egomaniac economists on the electorate. Bang goes any possible political careers for David McWilliams, Morgan Kelly and others.”

Establishment spinner of the day award to JTO.

@Yogan
“A pox on their houses”
I agree…Dail and Seanad.

@ All,

The short-ness of Lee’s political career doesn’t bother me much. Especially, given the respect in which our elected officials in Ireland are held, by our vast bureaucratic army of civil servants. (Doesn’t something in the title civil servant, suggest, they aught to serve in some way?) None of the elected members of the Dail chamber are willing or able to take the struggle to our bureaucratic departments – or indeed, any of the bank-ing or build-ing industries beyond. I used to enjoy watching some of George Lee’s solo runs, even when he lost the ball.

As Pat Crerand, the Manchester United player said once, when asked if the career of George Best was too short. He said, he would rather bea spectator to one year of George Best’s football career, instead of 10 years of another average player’s career, which would bore the pants off of you to watch. Kind like Pete Sampras in tennis. At least George Lee, whenever on the field, gave the supporters some value for their admission tickets. I reckon that 9 months of George Lee’s political career was as good as 9 year of someone else’s.

But I did warn about this. This is how I deemed fit to address Mr. Karl Whelan yesterday evening:

If I was to think about this, from an implementation point of view, (put on my project manager’s hat) instead of from an economist point of view – the way I think about this, is based on civil servants I do know and their regard for the elected politicians in the Oireachtas. The attitude is, give the politicians a toy to go off and play with. That soaks up a week or two, banter-ing in the house of the Oireachtas. We all know how long the holidays of parliment are in Ireland. So it is by a succession of these tactics, that civil service departments ‘get through the year’, and avoid too much hassle with their bosses – the Irish State, in the form of elected ministers. Can we alter the dynamic To help achieve our end goal?

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/02/06/bonuses-as-deferred-pay/#comment-34948

You economist guys need to fully understand both your strengths and your weaknesses. If economics wants to really make its presence felt in the real world, then look at the experience of education for students at university level. I wrote on this blog a while ago:

“I also felt sure that economists should study more dynamics systems – be they natural, mechanical, virtual or whatever. I often used air-conditioning systems in tall buildings as an example I am familiar with. Those 2 no. things, patient diagnosis and dynamic systems. Two areas where economists in general, simply don’t get enough practice.”

Intellectual Reference:

The Atlantic magazine article, Is Google Making Us Stupid? by Nicholas Carr, is worth a read. It looks at what the Internet is doing to our brains. Your job as economists should be to work with analogies more often, such as patient diagnosis and dynamic systems to develop robust models, to understand what exactly is going on in the world.

BOH.

@ Oliver Vandt, aka the schitzophrenic serial poster previously known as Eamon, E65bn, NAMA 65bn etc…

I’m an establishment spin machine/lobbyist now? The conspiracies never stop spinning up there in your head do they eh? If at some stage you’d like to address the actual issue, ie that George Lee has made idiots of FG/RTE/South Dublin constituents AND the taxpayer who will be funding another unnecessary bye-election, please do, but i’m guessing your inane and insane rambling won’t make it that far up the logic-tree.

The simple facts are as follows:

George Lee walked out on RTE with reasonable question marks over the potential for conflict of interests in his reporting towards the end of his tenure there.
George Lee has walked out on FG after only 9 months into his role there, apparently not realising that politics in this country involves a long hard slog and a good deal of patience (even if Kenny has underused Lee massively and foolishly). He has dangerously undermined the leadership position of Kenny, and the general stature of FG.
George Lee has walked out on the good constituents of South Dublin only 8 months after they used their democratic vote to sweep him into power with a populist mandate few politicians in this country have ever been granted in recent memory.
Finally, George Lee has walked out on his duties to the rest of this country by preferring not to serve the public interest when clearly given the opportunity to do so, an opportunity 99.9% of the population will never get, and at a time of unprecedented economic turmoil. He has instead subjected us to another costly and pointless election cycle, whilst at the same time hoping to go back to his vastly overpaid public sector job.

@Stuart Blythman

“Do you people deny that George Lee was warning us of what was to come back in 2007 when it was extremely unpopular to do so? What was your forecast back then John the Optimist? Were you one of the permagrowth brigade? What did you think of Lee, McWilliams and Kelly then? Because they were right! You may reckon we’re in for a major upturn but try chatting to a few people in business and I can tell you at this point in time there’s no sign of it yet.”

I certainly don’t believe that there is any such thing as permagrowth. It is like saying that Manchester United are permaPremierLeagueChampions. Desirable, but unrealistic. Instead, what we have is long long periods (often many decades) of economic growth, punctuated by relatively short periods (a year or two) of economic contraction (just as we have long long periods of Manchester United winning the Premiership, punctuated by relatively short periods when they don’t).

As for predicting when the periods of economic contraction will occur, well those that you mention forecast every year that they are about to occur, so they are bound to be right occasionally. McWilliams was predicting an imminent economic crash as early as 1998. Even those fools who predict every year that Arsenal will win the Premiership are bound to be right one day (although I hope I’m not around when they are).

As for the upturn, there are clear signs pointing in that direction:

(1) The monthly ESRI/KBC index of consumer confidence was published today. It showed its biggest monthly increase since 2004.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/0208/consumer.html

(2) New car sales are way up in February. In January they showed a modest increase of just under 5% compared with January 2009. But, in the first week of February, the figures were:

1st week of Feb 2009: 1,955
1st week of Feb 2010: 2,879 – an increase of 47.3%

and for commercial vehicles, the figures were:

1st week of Feb 2009: 283
1st week of Feb 2010: 505 – an increase of 78.4%

Obviously, two swallows don’t make a summer and I certainly wouldn’t say that these figures alone ensure an upturn. But, they are certainly positive signs pointing in that direction and something to build on. What is necessary is for the Goverment to get off its backside and highlight these indicators, both to raise confidence among consumers in Ireland and among international investors.

By the way, Stuart, as I know you are in retail, my prediction in December that the level of cross-border shopping would see a sharp decline in early 2010 appears to be coming true. A couple of surveys of economic activity in N. Ireland in the past couple of weeks have painted a less rosy picture of the N. Ireland economy and given that as one of the main reasons. They did speculate that the decline in cross-border shopping was due to the arctic weather. But, in my opinion, this is wishful thinking on their part. We are 39 days into the new year, and road conditions to the border were only affected by snow and ice for 8 to 10 of those days. A far more likely explanation is that it is due to a 12% to 15% narrowing of the price differential between north and south of the border, resulting from a combination of lower inflation south of the border and a small rebound for sterling.

@Oliver Vandt

“Establishment spinner of the day award to JTO.”

I accept your award. It is a great honour. Thank you.

I’m not actually a member of the Establishment, being a humble salaried employee of an American multi-national. But, if the Establishment would like to send me a cheque in recognition of services rendered, I will gladly accept that too.

It’s ok to hide behind Anonymity and take cheap bar stool pot shots? Online residents of Garradrimna squint through tawdry curtains of self-congradulatory commentary.

casimir,

How many companies over time off indefinitely. That is until you loose your Dail seat?

Just one will do. I’ll get a job there.

Bond. Eoin Bond…

“I’m an establishment spin machine/lobbyist now?”

I’ll take that any day over being a schitzophrenic.

Overall, a bad day for politics. Many people hoped that GL would bring new thinking and energy to the Dail and political system. He was right to jack it in – nine months is more than enough time to get the lie of the land. More power to him for resigning from both FG and the Dail.

I agree entirely with Bond Eoin Bond. Sadly, George Lee has made a fool of himself – did he think he was going to be like Jesus coming to save us all from damnation? I would love to know exactly what he thought he could have achieved in those 8 months since he was elected. Has he never heard of the phrase including the words “Rome”, “built” and “day”. If it came to a show down between him or Brian Lenihan as Minister for Finance, I know who I would choose. He’s a nice fellow and everything, but not really at the races..

@chris johns

I was going to start a petition for the moderator to start cleaning out jto rants. And then you go and spoil it all by praising him. I give up. maybe I can do it a different way: if this blog pretends to proper economics can we automatically delete all posts that (a) make economic forecasts or at least (b) bin all posts that claim their last forecast was correct within 5 minutes of making said forecast.

If you read my posts above more carefully, you will see that I haven’t actually made any economic forecasts on this thread.

I have simply given factual information regarding two sets of data that were published today (consumer confidence and new car sales), both of which are positive signs for a possible upturn. However, I haven’t said that they guarantee an upturn, and I emphasised that the Government needs to highlight them to boost confidence further.

Are you suggesting that such factual information should not be posted?

@JTO

‘Instead, what we have is long long periods (often many decades) of economic growth, punctuated by relatively short periods (a year or two) of economic contraction’

How many times in this country’s economic history has this pattern been observed? I’m not a particularly keen student of economic history but I would guess never….. would be happy to be corrected though.

@ALL
I was at this talk on 21st October 2009.

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/10/21/peter-mathews-talk-tonight/

At the end of the night several people, including myself, approached George Lee. Fittingly enough he was the only Oireachtas representative who bothered to turn up. Naturally – given the nature of the meeting – we all complained that not enough was being done by FG on NAMA and strongly urged (some might say attacked!) him to do more himself. His unhappiness RADIATED from him. He loyally defended his party, saying that the Green convention was the place to stop it and that he had been allowed to do some radio interviews. However, his discomfort was projected with unmistakable force.

Anyone in the FG parliamentary party who says they didn’t know of his dissatisfaction is being completely dishonest. And no one can be completely dishonest as plausibly as a politician.

@JTO
“Are you suggesting that such factual information should not be posted?”

Yes, by people who won’t identify themselves.

What an abuse of democracy. The right to vote is a fundamental of democracy. The right to be elected as a representative of those entitled to vote is a privilege – abused today by Mr Lee. He could have spoken out… did he? He could have resigned the party and gone Independent or joined or started a party. He could have learned that you don’t play in the first team until you earn your stripes. He could have treated his voters with respect. He wasn’t a fighter obviously so Dail Eireann is hardly losing anyone useful. Minister O’Dea was, more prescient than most last week in his description of Mr Lee. Let’s hope his media colleagues show more appetite for work than he did and so devour the Lee of our own lovely (not) Banks.

@Oliver Vandt

Did it ever occur to you that FG actually thinks NAMA is not such a bad thing? They have not been forceful enough in putting forward alternatives if they think it is so terrible. Is their game plan to let NAMA go ahead so that they can use its probably lack of immediate success for their benefit to get into power in the next general election? Kenny is insipid. It is impossible to imagine him as leader of this great country. I dread the day if it ever happens. GL has come across all apologetic etc but the reality is that he did not have the gumption to make a difference – why did he not take the front bench position…seriously? He has the wrong temperament for politics so at least we can thank him for facing up to that reality.

@ Kevin Denny,

Sorry Kevin, it found its way underneath my entry above. Apologises for the mis-understanding. BOH.

Kenny is going to have to get a new mandate to lead.

If he doesn’t he is damaged goods and will ensure that FF get elected the next time round.

Oh My God They Killed Kenny

From Max Weber’s “Politics as a vocation”:

“Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards. It takes both passion and perspective. Certainly all historical experience confirms the truth–that man would not have attained the possible unless time and again he had reached out for the impossible. But to do that a man must be a leader, and not only a leader but a hero as well, in a very sober sense of the word. And even those who are neither leaders nor heroes must arm themselves with that steadfastness of heart which can brave even the crumbling of all hopes. This is necessary right now, or else men will not be able to attain even that which is possible today. Only he has the calling for politics who
is sure that he shall not crumble when the world from his point of view is too stupid or too base for what he wants to offer. Only he who in the face of all this can say ‘In spite of all!’ has the calling for politics.”

Would have been a good christmas present for George methinks.

“Kenny is going to have to get a new mandate to lead.

If he doesn’t he is damaged goods and will ensure that FF get elected the next time round.”

Good point Greg. But I for one, don’t think I can ever again, look at the Fine Gael party, in the same way as I did, up until this moment. I certainly would have gone out of my way to vote Fine Gael in the next general election – which is saying something, since I would always give the Greens a vote, being interested in their direction. That is what George Lee’s membership in FG meant to myself as a citizen.

I don’t mind so much that George’s career didn’t last. Being frank, I didn’t pin too much hopes that his career would last. But the manner in which it ended. Yeah, being honest about it, this is the last time I’ll ever look at FG again. Having said that, I still wish them well in the next election, and those who still believe in the party. I just don’t understand what they are about any more. They have great young members in the Dublin area I know, where I work, and I wish them all well.

I am not simple minded enough to think, that every newbie TD, celebrity or otherwise should be pandered to, and mammy-ied in any way, at all. There is nothing wrong at all with Olivia Mitchell’s summation of things on the Six One News tonight. I thought she was very fair. But I do think that Fine Gael as a party have blown it, to be frank. They didn’t estimate for the capacity of George Lee as a member to swing huge votes in the direction of their party – even in constituencies like West Limerick, where I vote – a million miles away from Mr. Lee’s South Dublin area.

The ‘George Lee factor’ amongst young people especially, was worth at least 1,000 votes in every electoral area, for the Fine Gael party, where Mr. Lee wasn’t even local to.

BOH.

@ Anon Bond

I have trouble with anonymous opinions like John the Anonymous’s prediction which are lumped in with selective facts. Also, I don’t think that it is right in a “pofessional” forum for people here have a good go at George Lee while hiding behind pseudo names.

@ Ahura Mazda

‘Prior to George Lee, who was the last person to resign from the Dail on a point of principle?’

Ray Burke in 1997 claimed that he was resigning on a point of principle. Although I’m not sure many would agree!!! Prior to that you’re probably going back to Kevin Boland in 1970 who resigned his seat in protest at Jack Lynch’s Northern policy. Ironically the constituency in question was South County Dublin, a sort of earlier version of the current Dublin South constituency! Some may cite Pat Cox who did resign his seat in 1994 but he only agreed to do this in the event that he got re-elected to the European Parliament and he held true to this. Most resignations from the Dáil are as a result of being appointed to another office (e.g. Euro Commissioner) or ocassionally as a result of ill-health. So Kevin Boland is probably the answer to your question.

On George Lee himself my own view is that his decision to enter politics was disastrous both for him and for FG. He was wholly unsuited to it, something that I think was evident from the very begining and was emphasised by the manner of his resignation today. He never made the transition from commentator to legislator. I also feel that he was temperamentally unsuited to the role. There is also the matter that some of his pronouncements contradicted long established FG policy.

For George Lee himself the sad thing now is that in the space of a year (or less) he has gone from holding a position that he clearly enjoyed and was succesful in to being an outcast as he cannot be reappointed to his former position (or anything similar) without a significant period in quarantine. He has effectively surrendered his position with very little in return. However he clearly has the talent to carve out some niche for himself in the media and doubtless will do so in times to come.

I agree that this whole episode does raise questions about our political system and its ability to attract people from outside the existing political structure to government but I’m afraid in George’s case it was always destined to end like this regardless of the failings and frailties of the system.

BTW, qualification to above: I don’t in any way feel hostile towards Mr. Enda Kenny either. I am disappointed for Mr. Kenny as a leader. I wouldn’t have wished it upon him, to have stepped on this land mine. His work, in giving a voice towards those young men and women who have to emigrate from Ireland now, as been admirable in my view. Mr. Kenny has had many different things to deal with, and has gone about his job, with the Lisbon Treaty and everything else.

In fact, I believe the problem with Mr. Kenny, is he would have been better off, and for the Fine Gael party, if he had been a lazy so-and-so. It might have meant, he took better stock of what was happening within his Dail members party. Still though, lets not undermine the huge achievements of Mr. Kenny over the last number of years. It was a gutsy performance by any standards, and even parties in the North, are keen to model themselves on the ‘renewed Irish FG party’. That is a complement.

Like I said, it just goes to show you the number of ways in which a political leader – any political leader can slip up.

Intellectual reference: Linus Torvalds, leader of the open source software Linux project since the early 1990s. Who once referred to the fact he was lazy, being responsible for his success over such a long period of time, in holding together a group of software engineers on such a huge and ambitious project. Being a lazy man, he was very inclined to deligate out to individuals, responsibility for various aspects of the project. Contrast that to Richard M. Stallman, who did most of the donkey work to begin with – but whose leadership style simply didn’t fit into an internet again, whereby Linus Torvalds could marshall such a vast un-tapped workforce. The Cathedral and the Bazaar, by Eric S. Raymond, a book which many young aspiring politicians might like to read, along with Torvald’s fittingly titled autobiographical novel, Just for Fun. BOH.

@ Brian Flanagan

“I have trouble with anonymous opinions like John the Anonymous’s prediction which are lumped in with selective facts.”

You had two choices:
1. write a reply to JtO with your own facts and opinions
2. complain that JtO was posting anonymously.

You’ve chosen the rather easy option there no?

“Also, I don’t think that it is right in a “professional” forum for people here have a good go at George Lee while hiding behind pseudo names.”

People the length and breadth of the country are tonight discussing the hyper-short political career of George Lee, many of them no doubt complaining about Lee, or FG, or both, for fairly rational and reasonable reasons (even if you disagree with them), surrounding a fairly unprecedented situation (Lee’s political career), at a time of unprecedented economic crisis. I, for example, have detailed why i think George Lee has made lots of different sets of people look like idiots, and why he has let down his constituents (even if he had honest reasons for this). Again, you are left with two options:

1. defend George Lee with a rebuttal to my, and others, points.
2. complain about people “having a go” when they are using anonymous names.

Again, you have decided on the rather easy option there.

Your knee jerk reaction to something you disagree with seems to be to complain about it “not being right” (whatever that is supposed to mean) and trying to shut down discussion on the back of the now jaded “anonymity” debate. Try debating the points raised rather than attacking the people raising them.

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/05/05/george-lee-enters-politics/#comments

@ Anon Bond
“2. complain about people “having a go” when they are using anonymous names.”

Done that at 11.

@ Bond Eoin,

“a very insightful post from “Nick” way back when on that link…

“Nick Says:
May 5th, 2009 at 11:24 pm”

Brilliantly spotted!

Thanks a million for picking that post about. BOH.

@John The Optimist
You said you expected to see a sharp rise in consumer confidence in the six months after May 09 – thanks to the absence of George Lee.

“On the bright side, with no more nightly appearances from Dr. Doom, I’d expect to see a sharp rise in consumer confidence in the next six months.”

So you, Eoin, Veronica, Conchubar, Zhou, Joseph and the rest of the establishment really do believe that our economic and banking collapse is due to negative commentary, and Lehmans, rather than the bursting of a lending bubble that was always doomed to burst.

In that case the country truly is doomed and NAMA will be a giant transfer of wealth from the public to bank investors and developers.

@ Robert Browne,

I think you are correct Robert. I watched The Frontline program for myself. I think that George’s comments about the present, the here and the now, speak volumes in favour of his grasp of Ireland’s situation. Whether that is down to Mr. Lee’s training as an economist, and being able to see the big picture. (as could McWilliams, Morgan Kelly and so on) Or whether Mr. Lee’s own personality leads him to realise that Ireland’s opportunities are slipping away daily. I don’t know if it is one or the other, or some combination of both.

But I do know one thing. I have listened and read to at least 50 no. different points of view this evening. They all seem to be telling Mr. Lee, as an individual – George, it is about the long term, it is about jostling into the right position. As if this was a horse race and Mr. Lee was Lester Piggot on a Vincent O’Brien trained derby winner, with a quarter mile to go.

What George Lee is saying, is that Ireland, as a nation and as economy, has already ran it’s race. It is now about how we can all group together, how all parties can conduct themselves in a different way, to use the larger resource that is Dail Eireann, that was granted to us, by those founding fathers, to figure out where we are going to be, come the next derby. How can Ireland pick the best bloodstock, and have it in shape, to mount the next challenge?

By bloodstock, I mean, the various kinds of embryonic economics that Ireland can institute today, without minister Brian Lenehan’s objection(s) – such as National-isation etc being too large, too cumbersome and too expensive. The seeds that we can plant today, in the soil, in Ireland could and would become the oak trees, within 2 no. years time. Even with Fine Gael in opposition, there is nothing to stop Ireland doing something today, except our own lack of vision. I spoke about this at my Designcomment blog, because I have spent time in the real trenches of the economy and I know.

BTW, I did like David Farrell’s (he made a contribution on tonights The Frontline) points in his recent Irish Times article, which I commented on recently at the Irish Economy blog site.

It is a fair point, and I do take his point. But, listening to the Dail coverage on RTE’s website the other evening, I heard Ms. Coughlan, Tanaiste, mention that the Irish state is the single largest employer we have. That was something new to me, thinking of the state in terms of it, as an actual employer.

So how can we logically expect so many miracles of government?

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/01/31/further-delays-on-nama/#comment-34096

BOH.

@ Brian O’Hanlon

this is the last time I’ll ever look at FG again. Having said that, I still wish them well in the next election

Is this the Irish version of having your cake and eating it?

Answers in Twitter format please!

David O’Donnell
HAHAHAH! ROFLAO!

LorcanRK
Wow
Mary
Michael Flynn Rathgormack Waterford
Stuart Blythman
Oliver Vandt
yoganmahew
Ahura Mazda
joe lawlor
Well said!

kevin denny
It might be very good news! I met him at the DIRT tribunal ……. he may know what he is doing! Might he stand again, as an independent? Slaughtering all other candidates? He might then extend an invitation to others who are honest and hard working, to join him in clearing out the stables? Some commentators, even in detraction of him, evaluated him as a vote getter.

So be it! Let us have a real opposition and real freedom of information in this little country!

I wonder if he will become RTE’s Washington correspondent?

@ Joseph

“Is it true George gets a lump sum payoff”

Please tell me this is a joke? If you quit your job, “mid contract”, why should you be entitled to anything???

@Oliver Vandt

“@John The Optimist. You said you expected to see a sharp rise in consumer confidence in the six months after May 09 – thanks to the absence of George Lee. You (ie JTO) said: ‘On the bright side, with no more nightly appearances from Dr. Doom, I’d expect to see a sharp rise in consumer confidence in the next six months.’”

WOW! Did I really predict that? I had totally forgotten. But, it turns out to have been one of the best forecasts ever made. Whether by co-incidence or not, the ESRI/KBC monthly consumer confidence index for January was published yesteday. The figures since George Lee quit RTE in May are:

May 2009 45.5 << (George Lee departs RTE)
Jun 2009 53.4
Jul 2009 49.5
Aug 2009 48.7
Sep 2009 49.6
Oct 2009 54.2
Nov 2009 53.6
Dec 2009 53.3
Jan 2010 64.6
http://www.esri.ie/irish_economy/consumer_sentiment/latest_consumer_sentiment/CSI_Indices_Jan10.pdf

Thanks Michael,

So we’d need to go back 40yrs to find another uncompromising idealist. I listened to a number of politicians yesterday and many mentioned that George Lee could have had a long political career ahead. I think too many TDs are “career” politicians. The quality and energy of the majority of TDs are poor.

I take your points on Lee, though I’d place more responsibility on the FG leadership. Kenny should have met and agreed a role for Lee prior to Lee’s candidacy. A Happy Lee would have been a good vote getter for FG. Having been elected, it seems crazy not to get him involved in economic policy development. But, then again, that may upset some other TDs “career”.

Kevin Boland resigned before I was born, I hope Lee’s resignation won’t be a once in a lifetime event.

“@ Brian O’Hanlon – This is probably not the right thread to start discussing the NSS or indeed reports like Twice the Size – I will get to that in the future as this is something I am also interested in.”

Agreed Edgar. I won’t get into talking about it here. I just had a spare hour, to drop off a few final statements, I had in my mind about the George Lee issue.

Thanks. BOH.

@ Joe,

thanks for those comments Joe. Very interesting. BOH.

@Eoin – “Please tell me this is a joke? If you quit your job, “mid contract”, why should you be entitled to anything???”

I believe my source is correct. €15,000 is his ‘entitlement’ – and he was on holiday for a fair chunk of that time he was in the Dail (and receiving a good salary to boot). There is no pension entitlement though after such short service – just a lump sum.

They are weli looked after when they leave the Dail – especially if they lose their seat. That’s why George will ‘only’ get 15k – he jumped instead of being pushed. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s tax free too (doh! I forgot to ask!).

Perhaps he will give it to charity?

As for not being entitled to anything … I’m sure there are many p*sspoor CEO’s who have ‘left’ their jobs mid-contract with nice payoffs who would disagree with you. Some are more entitled than others. Two legs good, four legs bad.

@Eoin – “Please tell me this is a joke? If you quit your job, “mid contract”, why should you be entitled to anything???”

Right. And if you do a piss-poor job and destroy your shareholders and have to pushed out kicking and screaming then you are only entitled to a multi-million pension and lump-sum. Cue all Irish banking chiefs.

I heard deputy Enda Kenny, on RTE radio News at One. Same leadership approach again: I will lead from the front. Me, me, me me. He doesn’t seem to grasp, that approach isn’t working anymore. Things will not improve at Fine Gael, until Mr. Kenny has the confidence to say, Not me, but all of them (his own members). As Brian Cowen did since becoming leader of FF.

Wow, I can’t believe I am saying this. I hardly have much affection for current FF government. But I have to hand it to them. Their approach is working better at the present, with the resources they have. FF’s resources may even be less than what FG enjoys. As Enda himself said, FG has many leaders and many ministers. A lot of talent.

Mr. Kenny is worried that Fine Gael will slide back down into the in-fighting and bickering, it came out of. Well, let it, I say. If you don’t allow the party a chance to work at this stage, and take a chance, one might as well throw their hat at it. The fact Brian Cowen has been in government for the last 20 years, he understands the importance of distribution of responsibility across all party members. Where Mr. Kenny (who is only in opposition) is too much of a leader, to allow the party to evolve day-to-day. BOH.

Relevance? One has to be blind or stupid or both to not see the relevance. But I will give you a hint.

I have not seen you complain once about the handouts given to Irish bank CEOs. You complain about a piddling 15k to George Lee. But those utterly undeserved millions to the bankers – not a peep. Those three pensions to Bertie Ahern. No sir no complaints there either. And George could have stayed in that job and done nothing and made that 15k by April Fools day. At least he is honest enough to forgo his salary when he feels he is not up to the job.

@ Garo

Angry, so so angry.

For the record, there is no job in the entire private sector which gives you an automatic guaranteed payout when you voluntarily leave your job because you don’t like it, but yet it seems to be the norm in Dail Eireann. You’re comparing apples and oranges in this repsect. Thats my point. He also gets to go back to a €150k a year job in RTE, where apparently they have an unlimited unpaid leave option in their work contracts, something also sadly lacking in the private sector. And at no point have i ever defended the ridiculous payouts given to bank CEO’s or the pensions of our former TD’s.

I didn’t realise that you required some form of automatic input from me on every topic of conversation that finds its way into your head. I didn’t realise that you needed my opinions that much, and i apologise for neglecting you in this way. Please send me the unabridged list of questions that you have that you feel i may not have answered at some point.

@ Edgar

apologies. I referred to the reasonably interesting voluntary severance payoff GL was entitled too. I didn’t bring up the issue over bank executive payoffs.

@ Ahura Mazda

Would you really describe GL’s resignation as a matter of principle? The only principle involved appears to be “the insufficient influence of George Lee on policy”. What differences he had with FG policy nobody knows.

I genuinely believe GL when he says the only reason he entered (and the only reason he has left) politics is his desire to influence policy. If only we had more policy-motivated politicians.

But I still don’t understand what steps he took to increase his influence. Did he circulate policy memos around the paliamentary party, make critical and/or constructive speeches at internal party meetings, demand face time with Richard Bruton etc.? Or did he think working/scheming to win influence was beneath him or something? Turning down Enda’s last minute offer of a position on the front bench (which would presumably mean greater influence on policy) because it was last-minute and not purely motivated by love and respect for George Lee was foolish and bizarre.

GL was in a very strong position to demand input. His departure has damaged FG and Enda Kenny – why on earth didn’t he just use this leverage to achieve the influence he says he wanted? If Enda refused why not do what politicians do and start doing some muttering of his own, or even some coup-plotting? If Bruton becomes leader there’s a vacancy as finance spokesperson….

I don’t know what George read over Christmas but Weber + Machiavelli would have been good.

@Michael… I had a look around on the net and although I can see Kevin Boland resigned from FF in 1970, did he actually resign as a TD aswell?

I couldn’t find anything conclusive…

Could it be that that GL is angling for Charlie Bird’s post in Washington given Bird’s clear desire to come home? Charlie appears to be even more vexed that no-one panders to him in the US than GL is about his relative isolation in FG. Maybe Charlie’s imminent and inglorious return is what promoted George to make his parallel and equally inglorious move… Gives an obvious out to RTE management – what’s the odds anyone?

@Edgar Morgenroth
“@ Oliver – the big point you omit is that the government did get elected. If people don’t like the govenmnet they can change it but they did not. If they don’t like the alternative it is open to anyone to stand as a candidate (indeed given your views you ought to consider it). In that sense George Lee took a brave step to enter politics.”

If George Lee couldn’t beat the Irish political system then I certainly couldn’t. Can a radical theologian priest beat the Vatican? Not unless they make you Pope – and they won’t make you Pope. Irish elections are the equivalent of 5 yearly papal elections. The Irish establishment – like the church – changes when it decides to change. Most depressingly, it only ever changes policy. Sometimes – like Vatican 2 and the removal of tariffs – the institution’s policies change radically. The fundamental nature of the institution itself NEVER CHANGES.

The secretive, collusive, closed, hierarchical, poisonous Vatican and Irish establishment will never willingly change. The insiders will not give up power without a bitter fight.

@George Lee
The one thing that makes the Irish establishment even slightly change is having their behaviour revealed to the public. If you really want to force the Irish establishment to change then forcing the FG wing of it to change is imperative, as they will be in power after the next election.

Reveal all – every detail. Name names – every one. Shame them. Shame them publicly – as publicly as you can. The church is dead because people failed to do this. FF may soon be dead too. If you want to save FG – and the country – reveal the complete, blunt truth.

It’s the ONLY thing that will ever make them change.

@ Wonderer

Boland remained a TD when he resigned as minister in 1970.

Stephen Colins says today in the IT: a similar episode was the election of an unemployed workers’ candidate, Jack Murphy, in the general election of 1957. After a frustrating year as an Independent he resigned his seat and emigrated to England. He had nothing like Lee’s advantages and profile but was similarly lost in Leinster House.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0209/1224264029931.html

James Conran says:

“I don’t know what George read over Christmas but Weber + Machiavelli would have been good.”

Nicely put James.

Michael Hennigan says:

“If you join a company or organisation where you have foolishly not had your role defined beforehand, it is difficult to do so later.”

I think it was Harry McGee, political staff with the Irish Times who said this morning, it was naive on both Fine Gael party’s side, and on George Lee’s side himself, not to nail down the agreement better.

There is the crux of the matter, as I tried to outline to Mr. Karl Whelan lately. That economists lack experience in implementation, even though they are excellent at seeing things others cannot see in the bigger picture.

The construction industry, where I work, has an endless amount of work, re-winding the tape in time, and fast-forward-ing it, and re-winding it again, to try and ascertain afterwards what contract was made.

There is always some aspect of a project, which afterwards becomes the subject of some disagreement. The funniest one I ever heard of, was a teacher of mine at university, who did not agree with the concept of putting insulation into the walls of old Georgian houses. He bought one of a pair of homes sold by a builder, which had insulation installed in it. So he sued the builder for putting in the insulation.

The fellow who purchased the second house, heard about the court case, and wanted to know if there was insulation in his Georgian house. There wasn’t. He wasn’t impressed, and sued the building for not installing insulation. The poor old builder was left with 2 no. court cases on his hands, with no clients happy, having tried to do the best he could for both of them. This is why they invented intermediaries called architects by the way. BOH.

@ BOH

if we really want ‘experts’ in the Dail, while still taking account of constituency responsibilities, should we not consider some type of list system for a proportion to the main house of the Oireachtas?

We have 166 members as is, all directly elected. Why not reduce it down to say 146, with the remaining 20 apportioned to each party on a total first preference vote basis. This would give each party the opportunity to bring in “experts” in certain fields, without that expert having to devote so much time to trying to get re-elected all the time. Imagine if FF could bring in a heavyweight like Peter Sutherland or Denis O’Brien or Michael O’Leary (if any of them were willing to), who would not be too bothered about re-election a few years down the road. Other countries are able to do it all the time.

@ Bond Eoin,

The simplest way to look at this Eoin, is as follows. We already have ‘listed members’ of a sort. Except they are not individuals per se. They are rather, organisations, such as the ESRI (the problems for ministers and ESRI reports etc, is well documented in various relationships down through the years) who facilitate the government with policy documents designed to bolster up the technical knowledge in the Dail chamber. The only difference, now, is we are looking to move this expertise closer to the Dail chamber, and put it within the Dail chamber, and indeed, within political parties. It is like transplanting an organ – one must only hope the body will accept the new organ.

There is an analogy I have been working on, to try and understand the Mr. Lee – Fine Gael relationship. It is a form of contract known as the surrogate mother. Where the infertile party enlist the services of a person to become the bearer of something very special for them. The surrogate policy maker’s job is to sit there and consume choclate. The expert brain being used as the chamber in which to incubate a new economic policy. This is the kind of service is performed all of the time, by economic, social and environmental think tanks around Ireland. But the experience of managing the contract is a bit more advanced and well worked out.

In the case of Mr. Lee and Fine Gael, they embarked on something new for both of them, and the inexperience eventually showed. Following the nine month gestation period, it appears as though the surrogate policy maker, did not wish to part with the offspring. The ‘glittering career’ that Fine Gael was prepared to offer Mr. Lee was like the one that society used to offer our female population in days gone by. The honour and responsibility of producing the next generation. Listening to the radio interviews with various Fine Gael Dail deputies today, they appeared to say: George Lee did not hold up his part of the bargain. Where are his policy documents?

BOH.

@Ahura

Resigning because you don’t feel important enough is not a point of principle!
Face it, he was banking on an election and thought he’d be in cabinet. He took a one year leave of absence and the year is approaching its end. It was all about him.
The voters of South Dublin should send him the bill. It’s a shocking way to treat the constituency.

@Sarah Carey

100% agree.

@Michael Hennigan
Lot of talk from FG that George Lee is returning to his well paid job etc etc.
“Ten Fine Gael TDs who took a voluntary pay cut last year, including party leader Enda Kenny, have asked for their salary to be restored following the reduction imposed by last December’s budget.
Three other Fine Gael politicians have decided to continue with the voluntary deduction despite suffering an official pay cut.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6991207.ece

@Robert Browne
I found this piece bitter and partisan but unsurprising.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0209/1224264028147.html

@ALL

Remember Tomás MacGiolla:

Just a little reminder that another who did this state no small service was also in the news yesterday – I refer, of course, to Tomás MacGiolla, ex lord mayor of Dublin, leader of Official Sinn Fein, and one of the men of principle of his generation. His economic policies might not be flavor of the month around this blog …………. but he unquestionably had, what many public representatives apparently lack at the moment – genuinely held principles.

Sarah Carey is the first person here to post the obvious reason for his decision. When I heard the announcement that he was going into politics I thought at the time that he must be pretty confident that the government was going to collapse and that there would be an election. In fairness though, I suppose that there seems to have been a communications problem on both sides at the initial stage as you would think that FG and GL would have clarified his role at the start. How on earth did he think that he could change so much in 9 months in the opposition party? Personally, I never bought the ridiculous hype about how he was going to save us all and I think that he has an inflated opinion of his own abilities and importance. Having said that he does know something about economics so I did welcome someone with some economics expertise going into politics rather than merely criticising from the sidelines. I thought that the Sam Smyth report in the Indo today was quite interesting http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/sam-smyth-fledgling-george-flees-the-playground-of-fantasy-politics-2054263.html

As a golf pro once said to me, “At this stage in my career, I cannot improve my best shots. It makes more sense, to spend more of my practice time, looking at how I can improve the weakest aspects of my game.” There is a natural, in-built reluctance in all competitors (and lets face it, in an open marketplace, many nations are competitors with each other) not to improve the weaker aspects of their game. The Irish state and government has provided ample evidence of that to me, in not using the talents of Mr. Lee to more value. BOH.

Correction, sentence should read: There is a natural, in-built reluctance in all competitors to improve the weaker aspects of their game.

“But the position that George Lee found himself in, was frustrating, because enough attention did not go in joint Oireachtas policy making discussion towards (3). I have a dreadful, but real feeling myself, that Dail Eireann will never be any good at (3).”

Having talked to Enterprise Ireland staff myself, on one occasion or another, they appear to think, Dail Eireann doesn’t have a clue. (Don’t take my word for it, just go and ask some) If you talk to people in large business here in Ireland, similarly, they don’t think Dail Eireann has any clue. Note the similarity in opinion by both a state institution aimed at fostering private enterprise, and those in private enterprise itself.

So there is some evidence to suggest, that Dail Eireann is focussed on excellence in (1) and (2), because it is afraid to confront its own failure (in relative terms) in (3).

The interesting thing is, for the brief period of the Celtic Tiger, when it seemed to be working for Ireland in all (1), (2) and (3), the Dail Eireann representatives seemed to claim credit for all three jack pots. I would claim, that to Dail Eireann’s credit, they understand (1) and (2), but don’t understand, nor do they confidently, want to understand (3). BOH.

@Sarah Carey
FG helped cover up the collapse of the banks and agreed to cooperate to get NAMA passed, while publicly completely opposing it. Now this. Only FG could have become a totally discredited OPPOSITION – and after being out of power for so long. When the pound collapsed in 1992 senior British Labour figures didn’t rush to the conservatives side as senior FG figures backed FF/PDs. They did this (?) against the wishes of their own party.

FG have all the Vatican like characteristics of the rest of the Irish establishment. When they finally get elected into office for the first time in thirty years…not much will change. How could it? FG – Dukes, Sutherland, Fitzgerald, Kenny, Bruton et al – are just the duller, posher wing of the establishment.

We needed an FDR – we got Kenny and Bruton.

Btw, for those not keeping up, Tony Demello = Oliver Vandt = E65bn and so on and so forth…i’m expecting Don Quixote to start posting on here soon…

@ consaw

Bottom line he was there to play a role in the structure of economic policy and was not used.

There are many non-economic aspects of necessary reform that are essential for effective economic policy.

It puzzles me that a person who walks away from a fight for change; who did not put forward significant proposals when he had a unique platform as a media insider and returns to a cushy public sector position, elicits admiration.

George Lee and the job he hated:

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1019015.shtml

True Mike, True. But….. Again he wasn’t utilised for any other aspects either. He chaired a few meetings, given to him to keep him happy.

It was a waste of an asset whether it was economic policy or any other reform agenda he could have had valuable input to.

And as for policy proposals….As far as I know it was not a very solid platform for him to propose his policies. I have a feeling he would have had to get around a very structured system in order to be heard.

As someone with knowledge in an area he should have been approached on occasion for input on policy. It should not be a system where you have to fight for your opinion to be heard within your own party. Once again, a systematic problem.

As someone with knowledge in an area he should have been approached on occassion for input on policy. It should be a system where you have to fight for your oponion to be heard within your own party. Again a systematic problem.

Also it’s a very bitter view at begrudging him going back to RTE, why wouldn’t he? Wouldn’t you?

@ Sarah

“that the imperative to get FF out of office has been damaged”
?

That has nothing to do with this thread or matter. Thats a personal view. I don’t think George Lee had that in his mind when leaving and shouln’t influence anyones opinion on the matter.

sounds like your more concerned about FG’s face in the media and voting circle than that of pricniples??

Is there really any expertise in the Seanad? I mean really?

@ Consaw

you’re quite clearly on GL’s side in all of this, that much is obvious. However, i think it is extremely difficult to deny the following:

The Outcome:
– the credibility of Kenny as FG leader has been undermined
– the public belief in FG’s competence has been undermined
– the credibility of FG as an alternative government has therefore been undermined
– FF have therefore gained as a result

The Blame:
– GL was naive to some extent on how he saw this situation working, which is surprising given the area in which he worked
– FG either over promised or completely misunderstood what GL wanted from this situation
– regardless of principles etc, GL’s behaviour looks naive at best, and egotistic and selfish at worst.
– the €15k payout, rather than the return to RTE, is what is really galling many people
– the constituents of South Dublin are now lacking their full representation in the Dail, and are understandably angry
– the taxpayers of this country are being handed yet another by-election bill and are understandably angry
– the blame for that bill, and the €15k payout, lies with either FG or GL, or more probably a bit of both.

Perhaps my colleague VB puts it best today

“In the eight months he was in the Dáil he could have produced a policy document of his own and invited the Fine Gael parliamentary party to discuss it, just as Declan Costello did almost 50 years ago with his Just Society document. But George didn’t. He could have used his celebrity public meetings to enunciate his own views on public policy and he need not have been constrained by being the nominated chairman. But he didn’t.

Declan Costello had a great deal to say; regrettably George had nothing to say.”

There is a big divide in the response to George Lee’s resignation which reveals a deeper fault-line in society:

a. there are those for whom emotional authenticity and saying what you feel when you feel it are valued highly. Most of the media support this notion. Movies frequently have this line as their subtext. There are lots of movies about passionate love affairs.

b. there are those for whom emotional restraint and applying patience in the pursuit of longe-range goals are valued highly. Movies seldom have this line as their subtext. There are few movies about raising children.

Some, especially younger people and those who listen to Liveline, adhere to position a. Others, especially older people and those who work in organisations to pay for their families, adhere to position b. George Lee’s (post resignation) supporters seem to adhere, in the main, to position a. But consider some facts.

By his own admission, he did not formally offer policy ideas to FG’s front-bench – that indicates little or no real commitment on his part to the ideas he purports to hold. I am still unclear what they are.

By his own admission, he turned down the offer of a front-bench position from Enda Kenny because it was offered “under duress”. But half of all political decisions are probably made under some form of duress, either explicit or implied. Is GL completely naive?

GL contends that he is “a team player”. That perception is clearly not shared by Fine Gael’s TD and senators and one wonders what he bases it on? I would have thought that GL is more a prima donna than a team player.

What impact did George Lee make as a TD? Apart from his Glenties fopray, I can only remember one “contribution”.

He recently made a public comment about the refinancing of Houghton Mifflin (formerly Riverdeep) that can only have made the negotiation of that refinancing considerably more difficult (and expensive). His comment had little or no political purpose from what I could see. But it was an example of an incontinent newsboy who couldn’t hold in his scoop and simply had to pee it out, whatever the consequences to others. It was profoundly wrong-headed.

I would say that GL had come to the conclusion over Christmas that Leinster House just wasn’t his kind of place and that retail politics wasn’t his thing. He knew that his RTE leave of absence would end in May. And he probably suspected that his excuse – that FG weren’t listening to him – would expire once Enda Kenny had his next reshuffle and offered him a front bench position. So he baled out this week.

George left FG because he had no “economic input”. But he certainly won’t be doing economics in RTE – it’s too political and they already have Sean Whelan.

The sad conclusion is that George is a gifted and emotionally authentic person in a world that rewards patience and emotional discipline.

(Declaration of interest – I work in the finance area but have no direct or indirect interest in Houghton Mifflin / Riverdeep / Davys).

@ Cormac
Very good summary of position

@ Zhou

You are accepting the GL line.

So Kenny and Bruton are modern day Haughey types.

Had he friendships with anyone in Leinster House?

@Cormac Lucey

+1

As I mentioned up above. Dail Eireann good at (1) and (2), but it never developed any real expertise in (3). Dail Eireann, is struggling to even catch up with the reality that it even has a responsibility vis-a-vis duty (3). A bit like the father who left rearing of the kids to the other spouse. In the past, Dail Eireann could export challenge (3) for someone else to deal with. Instead of developing an expertise in Dail Eireann to learn how to approach (3), instead Dail Eireann spent their time basking in the sun beam that was the Celtic Tiger, over-inflated bubble, and took full credit for it, while it was good.

BTW,

(1) Local constituency work.
(2) State as the island’s largest single employer.
(3) The government and the wider (non-state) economy.

BOH.

I don’t see how being ‘naive’ is a factor here? So you’re saying that being aware of an inept structure and system makes it ok and that he should have accepted the way things worked inside the walls of FG/dail?

It was FF’s lack of economic guidance from able professionals within that sector that hindered there economic policy, I’m not saying he has yet but AA might be making a difference on this front. Why because he’s being used to his strengths….advising economic policy. I don’t think many will disagree that since then Lenihan has been doing a satisfactory job.

An economic analyst should be forming or at least involved in policy formation….not some farmer backbencher with half a calculator who labels himself an expert because he lives down the road from a bank!

Not in the GL fan club…just analysing with common sense.

@ Consaw

“So you’re saying that being aware of an inept structure and system makes it ok and that he should have accepted the way things worked inside the walls of FG/dail?”

He knew what he was getting into (or should have), he didnt really do very much to change it, and then he complains about how bad the system was afterwards. No offence, but im not really sure why we should be applauding someone who has just wasted everyone’s time. These are more the actions of an undercover reporter than a person interested in making the country a better place. At least if he’d lasted a few years and tried a few new things he could say he tried but to no avail. At the moment he didn’t even try, and decided to jump when the going got tough. I’m thinking Sarah Carey’s version of events is a far better fit to reality.

@MH

Are you surprised that Richard Bruton and Enda Kenny did not ask an FG TD who is a qualified economist who has done research on Ireland in the recent past for input into (i) their submissions on the NAMA Bill, (ii) their Budget Submissions, or (iii) their good bank plan?

Do you think Kieran O’Donnell should have been favoured to the exclusion of George Lee?

To suggest that a TD should go away and come up with grand economic plan parallel to and possibly in contradiction of his party’s plans as developed by Richard Bruton et al at the same time is a total nonsense.

Others posted previously about how desirable it would be to have more phd level economists in the civil service. There is no point in recruiting highly qualified people if you aren’t going to use them properly.

@ Zhou

I agree that there should be a higher level of economists in the civil service they do not necessarily have to be of PhD level, as far as I know I think there is only one (outside of AA) PhD level economist within the civil service.

Compare that to Britain who have hundreds of economists working and analysing policy every day for every department. i.e. people who are qualified to analyse and construct policy.

We have candidates who have been elected from council level to the Dail, majority were popular ‘pub owners’ and people persons with no clue about policy or how to construct.

When an asset came about for them…of course they didn’t use it.
George Lee merely highlighted a massive problem in an age old political system

…oh no I didn’t!

zhou_enlai

I don’t think there is any point going over the same issues again when you appear to have accepted the version of events presented in Lee’s media blitz in recent days.

Lee told the Indo yesterday that he didn’t support Bruton’s plan. He can basically say whatever suits him at this stage as its not in Fine Gael’s interest now to keep this merry-go-round on oxygen.

Why accept a self-serving version of events as fact.

Who said Lee should have produced a “grand economic plan” ?

There is a multiplicity of interlinked areas in dire need of reform.

He was an economics commentator not a practising economist and it’s ridiculous to argue that he didn’t need to bother preparing a single policy proposal himself.

To me, that simple fact sums up his level of commitment.

It is work like that is required in the Oireachtas.

If he wanted a front bench position he should have pushed for it at the outset.

He didn’t do so.

As for wanting to work with Richard Bruton, maybe the latter found him conceited and overbearing.

You have only heard a version that justifies an event that has not happened in over 50 years and let it be said again, this was not a profile in courage.

There was no sacrifice in making this drastic move.

@James Conran
Richard Bruton went out of his way NOT to use Lee at all. How has Richard Bruton done against the government since Lee was elected? He has failed abjectly. So, to be fair, have the rest of FG, and it was deliberate. They were colluding with the government since the Anglo 10 debate in Feb.

They may start being an active opposition now. Even if FG do oppose tooth and nail though – and I believe they don’t want power until the economy is recovering steadily – the moment of greatest opportunity has gone. So let’s see if Bruton and FG bring down the government over NAMA or the bank inquiry or Dempsey/Couglan or Harney… Actually, I know already that they won’t.

Solution: FG should join FF in government. FF are not corrupt or incompetent enough to stop FG colluding with them. Many senior FG figures – Dukes, Sutherland, Yates – backed NAMA, Lenihan and the budget and praised them hugely. Fitzgerald had reservations on the details of the budget but that’s probably an act. FG supporters in opinion polls have strikingly similar attitudes on the economy. Fitzgerald is now speaking warmly of Labour. But Dukes, and probably Fitzgerald, because Dukes has a weaker mental reservation skill, really blame Labour and not FF for the troubles of the 82-87 government. Social Democrats my foot – they were always just liberals. However, FG will never do it because it’s…always been that way.

Why don’t Labour force them together? Why shouldn’t Labour tell the truth about FG’s collusion? Well unfortunately they’ve been colluding (along with the other parties) themselves so they probably won’t. They’d have to come clean first and no Irish institution can do that. Also, according to Maurice O’Leary, an FG man, Joan Burton is a huge fan of Lenihan. He’ll nationalise the bankrupt banks. Yippee!

The only hope is that Labour and the trade unions decide to stop waiting and create a national movement with one goal: a national petition for an immediate election and a demand for a new Ireland.

Interview of Eoghan Harris by Eamon Keane at lunchtime today on this topic.

http://www.newstalk.ie/programmes/all/lunchtime/eoghan-harris-on-george-lee-enda-kenny-and-what-it-means-to-be-a-leader/

@ Edgar

solid work from you keeping the tempo up over the last few days. You’ve been a star addition to the Irisheconomy.ie team since the January transfer window opened up.

@Edgar Morgenroth
Thanks for all your work on the site.

@ALL
Let’s make it 300! Greece is in the news after all.

@zhou
Richard Bruton was interviewed on the Sean Moncrieff show yesterday afternoon. He was absolutely giddy with delight. He had been reviewing some entertaining documents earlier but it was a lot more than that. I have NEVER heard a politician in any interview sound so deliriously overjoyed. The FG front bench ARE shocked and they ARE angry but do you sense too that many of the economic ones especially aren’t sad to see him go? Judging by Richard Bruton’s mood he’s in seventh heaven. Put that together with only meeting Lee once and only speaking to him – the country’s finest economic communicator – three times in a deep economic crisis and you get…Politicians are professionally misleading and Irish politicians take it to a whole new level. So when Bruton claims to be sad to see Lee go I strongly suspect massive mental reservation.

I suspect Edgar’s comment is meant as a wrap-up, which is probably wise after 200+ comments. But let me just add two quick points:

1) the view that “George Lee was not given a chance” is not incompatible with the view that “George did not try [hard enough]”. I think I believe both those things.

2) @ Cormac Lucey’s questioning GL’s prescience – I think this does a serious disservice to Lee. Anyone who watches his June 2006 documentary “Boom”:

http://www.rte.ie/tv/boom/

will have to acknowledge he got a lot of things spot on.

“I suspect Edgar’s comment is meant as a wrap-up, which is probably wise after 200+ comments.”

Agreed, James.

Last orders now all! I have just put up my last two on the bar. Drink that! BOH.

I looked up Edgar’s homepage. He is a serious economist with serious output. Where can I find George’s research output. Will FG provide me with his working papers from its Economic Forum.

Reading between the lines on this story… It’s clear that Leinster House was not big enough for Mr Richard Bruton and Mr George Lee.

George was more aligned with Enda Kenny, however it is clear that Enda’s days are coming to a close. Hence when Enda goes, George Lee loses his main supporter in FG. So it was obvious George jumped ship to get back into RTE as there was no point in hanging around in FG.

While I accept George Lee may not have published much academic work in the past, he was still better than many of the other codgers in Leinster house who called themselves politicans.

FG have undoubtedly caused themselves much harm, which is what they are best at over the last 30 years.

The only winners in this are the media, they must be raking it in.

@ consaw,

If you really heard what I had to think, you wouldn’t like it one single iota.

Namely, that because George Lee and the media were beginning to see right through, of Dail Eireann’s inability to ‘fix the economy’, the ideal thing to do, to buy some more time and keep the government intact, was to throw George Lee a bone, and pretend he was going to have a part to play. That is why the opposition party in Dail Eireann came looking for George, and rightly led him down the garden path. It worked, beautifully. Especially, this play by Enda Kenny to convince George, he was doing something really special for his own family. What is so beautiful now, is now that George has copped them, they can say he wasn’t up to the task of politics.

It is a kind of ‘Tallaght Strategy’ were Fine Gael agree to gag the media, and in exchange, Fianna Fail step aside and allow them play government for a while, further down the road. After 30 no. years as a politician for deputy Bruton, and deputy Kenny is hanging around there since 1975 (my entire lifespan to date) – it is not as if Kenny and Bruton are strangers around Dail Eireann. Rather they are like as Morgan Freeman’s character said in Shawshank Redemption of that old guy who pushed the cart full of books and keep a crow in his cell.

But being that harsh to those 2 no. fine public servants, I will try to place my comments into a much larger context altogether. We have to stop sucker punching one another.

The new internet age that we are living through (and George Lee needs to learn some manners also, in this regard) is like a virus. The internet age has taken every single institution that you can think of and turned it inside out. David McWilliams published an article in last weekend’s Sunday Business Post about the recent web conference in Trinity college, which he attended. The fellow who founded Craig’s List spoke there, and his web concept has completely sucked the classified business out of traditional media. Yet Craig’s List only employs 30 no. people.

David McWilliams called in the wonderful real world of Narnia. If you ever read Yochai Benkler’s book, The Wealth of Nations (required reading for every single economist here, and yeah the title is very brave) you will hear Benkler describe the battle that is playing out in the world at the moment. Between new and old media. This extends right to politics also. Where the internet is actually beginning to affect politics. The strategy to date, has been one of where old media tries to cling onto its ground, and reinforces copyright and other laws to give itself breathing space. So that it becomes a crime to draw a cartoon of Mickey Mouse on your copy book in school almost, because you are infringing on old media’s copyright.

These are the times we live in. Tom Dunne on Newstalk 106, said only the other day, the latest statistic is that over 90% of music downloaded on the web, is illegally downloaded. It is in this context you have to view all of what I said above. You have to listen to someone such as Nicholas G. Carr, who wrote The Big Switch and Does IT Matter to understand, the pressure traditional journalism has come under. Will there be any money left in that business model, for real investigative journalism any more? Sure, a lot of cobwebs need to be swept away. Sure, procedures do need to change. But the first ones to strike will be career politicians, career journalists, whose very existence is under threat. And the political mentors etc like Eoghan Harris, Vincent Browne, Sam Symth who criticised politicians, but that in turn gave them a good living.

We have to look at this internet age, and realise, we have to strike some sort of balance. We cannot afford this thing to over-correct either way. It will be tough I think, to keep it all in balance. I just wanted to add that, because I have been so rude to politicians above in comparing them to New York families etc. I hope in due time, George Lee as well, will be able to find some peace with the system, some happy balance. But we have to stop sucker punching one another. BOH.

@ James Conran

Thanks for that reference.

I had used Google searching for evidence of George Lee’s prescience but had been unsuccessful. Your reference to “Boom” makes clear that GL had given a clear warning in 2006 of the credit-rooted dangers then facing the economy.

@Brian O’Hanlon
FG compare it to Saipan. Now we look back on Saipan and realise Roy Keane was a hugely difficult but hugely talented player, whereas previously most blamed Mick McCarthy. This is different though.

FG are as ethically questionable as the FAI.
FG are as incompetent as the FAI.
FG are as cliqueish as the FAI.
But Mick McCarthy was the employee of the FAI, whereas Enda Kenny used to be the leader. Now he’s reduced to FG’s manager – who’s just got the dreaded vote of confidence.

However, unlike Mick McCarthy, Kenny/Bruton:
Hardly fielded Lee, the Roy Keane of Irish politics, even in crucial matches, EVEN THOUGH HE WANTED TO PLAY.
Unlike Mick McCarthy who made Roy Keane captain, FG froze him out.
Reading David McWilliams, who worked with him, it’s clear George Lee is nowhere near as difficult as Roy Keane, and Enda Kenny as a future Taoiseach and Bruton as a future Minister for Finance ought to have been much better in managing him. What Kenny/Bruton and FG did was MUCH, MUCH WORSE than Mick McCarthy in Saipan.

The FG leadership DROVE Lee out. Why wouldn’t they? FG are just the less successful (duller/posher/more angrily reactionary) wing of the establishment that has run and repeatedly ruined this country for 88 years.

@ Paul

ah, but GL was the great white hope who was going to lead us to the promised land! I’m paraphrasing Lenihan somewhat there, and it was a heavily schadenfruede-filled and OTT statement from him, but FG did clearly oversell both FG to GL, as well as GL to the voting public.

Never before has expectations management, on all sides (including the public themselves) been so clearly out of step with the far more boring reality of day-to-day politics in Dail Eireann…

@ Brian O’Hanlon

The internet age has taken every single institution that you can think of and turned it inside out.

This seems so 1999!

Creative destruction has been around much longer than the web.

Self-interest, common interest, a system of laws, equitable justice and accountability to the people – – these issues transcend changes in technology.

Despite the legacy of FF, it’s easy to see how a portion of the electorate, currently disenchanted, could again be beguiled as some of the reaction to GL’s bombshell, in accepting his version of events without question and without assuming there was any self-interest on his part, highlights again how normally rational people can suspend reason.

@ Sporthog

This OV is a classic troll.

He beatifies GL and in support uses an RTÉ colleague’s endorsement of Lee to bolster his case!

@Sporthog
I feel – and I may be insulting you – that your reaction is the embodiment of the Irish establishment.

You wrote:
“Don’t take this the wrong way, but you post so much I wonder do you have a normal job?”
No, I’m a part of the Irish establishment, so I am secretive, selfish, collusive, corrupt and vicious. Being warped I also believe that all my critics are equally blackly motivated.

So, if I had a poorly paying job, or worse still – like 430,000 others – no job, my views, unlike say Brian Lenihan of the disastrous bank guarantee, carry no weight. In spite of having wrecked the country we must listen to him uncritically because he is one of our betters.
“You dislike the way this country is run so much that I wonder how can you stomach living here at all?”
After the economic collapse and the banking collapse many people are coming to the same conclusion. After previous collapses many came to it and emigrated. Today, even if they’d like to stay they are being forced out by the establishment. 60,000 left up to April 2009. More will follow, probably a huge number when the US and UK economies pick up.
“Do you live in Ireland?”
Born and long-time resident – that’s important to the Irish establishment, when a crisis hits. Before the crisis non-Irish born newcomers are to be celebrated. After the crisis, the establishment turn on them (see FG Mayor of Limerick).
“Are you trying to undermine the country from the outside?”
As stated above, being warped the Irish establishment believe that all their critics are equally blackly motivated.
“Do you seriously believe the world recession is the fault of FF and the Church?”
Trolling.
“Have you lived in any other country, apart from Ireland? Ireland has it’s problems but so does every other country. There are other countries which have worse human rights records and corruption rates than Ireland.”
Worse human rights records? My God. Why do you consider Irish people inferior? Surely we deserve the highest standards of governance in the world.

“I am starting to think you are just anti establishment.”
I am certainly anti our establishment. Frank Fahey was FF’s second most prominent NAMA spokesman. What does that say?

“It does not matter what party is in Govt, even if it was Jim Henderson’s Muppets, you would still be slating them.”
If FG are as bad as FF/PDs/GP then not if either are in government, no.

“Seriously E65, E43, Politicsdotaiyee, Oliver you are starting to embarress yourself. You need to get a grip man / woman (delete as appropriate).”
And your message to Mary Coughlan?

“Maybe we should all club together and get you on a holiday? Any takers?”
I hope you are FF as that sounds like a bribe! But after George Lee, you’re as likely to be FG.

@Michael Hennigan
“This OV is a classic troll.”
For the record I am not a troll and I agree with many of your views and find your website valuable.

“He beatifies GL and in support uses an RTÉ colleague’s endorsement of Lee to bolster his case!”
I didn’t beatify Lee – read my posts. But are you beatifying Richard Bruton? McWilliams is not on the staff of RTE, I would assume, but he knows George Lee well and worked with him. Now, you’re going to say McWilliams is an anti-FG troll. Read his article closely. You will see that one of the key ways Lee could have helped FG is in selling their good bank plan. Instead Richard Bruton tried and (deliberately?) failed. Bruton utterly failed. His plan was hardly discussed. Bruton could have worked with Lee to immense effect, but he didn’t. In a way, tacit collusion with the rest of the establishment is the more honourable motive for Bruton. Otherwise, he must be mean, vindictive, dishonourable and a political failure. Actually, it may be both. Bruton’s delirium on the day after Lee’s resignation showed his true face.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/david-mcwilliams-office-politics-snuffed-out-fine-gaels-brightest-star-2055598.html

Take off your blue tinted glasses Mr Hennigan. This is a huge loss to those who want real change in Ireland. It may be a huge loss to FG but that is only if FG want real change. After George Lee I believe that they don’t.

@ Paul Hunt,

Thanks for those contributions above, it was interesting to get your perspectives on this matter.

I penned something quickly, over at the blog this evening, in order to respond to some of the latest comments above.

http://designcomment.blogspot.com/2010/02/zombie-politics.html

@ Michael Hennigan,

Have at a look at Lawerence Lessig’s book, Code some time, regarding the internet and the law.

I think he labelled his latest edition Code 2.0, because he filled it out with new sections from interaction with others on wikipedia.

Web authors, what can you do.

BOH.

@ Edgar

My final contribution!

It’s interesting how the academic economists steer clear of controversy involving so-called celebrity economists!!

233…im happy with that….good show boys…good show…

Jack Murphy went to Canada after resigning his Dail seat.

The Dail was disillusioning for him and I suppose George Lee was not cut out for the “Yerra Yerra Killorglin needs an international airport” culture.

However I have misgivings of his being able to waltz back to RTÉ and €150 000 a year after saying that his departure was for good.

Would you take anything he said seriously after this episode?

Pat Donnelly quoted me as saying “But what I’ve gathered from the kerfuffle is that neither the government nor the main opposition party has any mechanisms for (and perhaps no interest in) doing any serious work on economic policy-making.”

It’s not really relevant to the resignation of George Lee, but I noted yesterday the enthusiasm with which Fine Gael mounted attacks on two ministers. The party seems to be far better at that sort of time-wasting unimportant activity than at thinking about economic (or any other) policy. I don’t vote for any of the parties in the current government or opposition, but I think it would be nice to have an intelligent opposition (I suppose an intelligent government would be too much to ask for).

Declaration of interest: Willie O’Dea once came to canvass, wearing a long coat. He opened the gate and let my dog out. I remonstrated. Willie, coat tails flapping, ran down the road after the dog and brought him back. I thanked him but I wondered about his choice of career.

bjg