“Monetary union requires fiscal union, which requires political union. As simple as that. Conversely, fiscal union without political union means bye-bye democracy.” — Dani Rodrik.
” give European politicians the power to declare a sovereign state bankrupt and take over its fiscal policy”
Sovereign states don’t go bankrupt.
The Euro conspiracy in open view , the bankers want to have full formal control over our Fiat without that messy politics stuff.
First of all Trichet is mixing up the private European “sovergin” bond market which was mainly a Post Napoleonic invention with a true sovergin state.
If we don’t issue our own currency we will become even more slavish then we are now.
These are the most evil of men.
What more can one say in the face of this darkness ?
I guess even some of the more innocent Euro babes are having some doubts now.
The words a Monstrous conspiracy comes to mind.
The Euro was designed to fail.
@Kevin
Trichet is the guy who got it entirely wrong and he has the audacity to utter this gibberish….
“WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Europe could strengthen its monetary union by giving European politicians the power to declare a sovereign state bankrupt and take over its fiscal policy, the former head of the European Central Bank said on Thursday in unveiling a bold proposal to salvage the euro.
The plan offered by Jean-Claude Trichet, who stepped down last November as ECB president, would address a fundamental weakness of the 13-year-old single currency, the survival of which is threatened by the Greek crisis.”
It’s a bit like DSK suing the maid in NY…..arrogance knows no bounds.
It’s little wonder the Eurozone is in the manure when people like Trichet are allowed spout such rubbish.
From Der Spiegel …
“On Wednesday, the ECB confirmed that a number of Greek banks have now been cut off from its refinancing operations. They apparently lack sufficient capital to use as collateral. Now those institutions will have to be kept alive through emergency loans from the Greek central bank in Athens.
Not all experts regard cheap money from ECB as a good solution. Hans-Werner Sinn, head of Germany’s influential Ifo Institute for Economic Research, says that the ECB’s actions have intensified the capital flight from the crisis-hit countries. “The cheap loans have downright put private capital to flight,” he wrote in a recent opinion piece for financial daily Handelsblatt. “The purpose of the ECB measures was to build trust again and restore the inter-bank market. In that respect, they obviously weren’t particularly successful.”
With the Greek Central Bank now rated -junk at CCC, will the ECB keep authorizing them to issue euros to their insolvent banks in the absence of collateral of sufficient quality?
”Trichet, too, has a modest proposal. New referendum needed?”
Somebody here suggested yesterday that the man was behind scenes pulling a lot of strings.
He’s come out from behind the curtain now; a spate of interviews and now this.
The man behind the Guarantee, I really do not doubt.
But looking at this, now that things have got to this stage – what are our own and the national laws of the other countries concerned regarding conspiracy, treason, subversion of sovereignty, etc ? This has passed beyond even Maastricht & Lisbon, surely ?
re- kevin O’D. :’ “Monetary union requires fiscal union, which requires political union. As simple as that. Conversely, fiscal union without political union means bye-bye democracy.” — Dani Rodrik.’
The attempt to pretend it was democratic was jettissoned way back when the european constitution was rejected.
Merkel today has called for a referendum on euro membership to be carried out in tandem with the election.
Germany willing to let them go, the EU Manifest Destiny crowd adamant that no territorial surrender be contemplated ?
Greece leaving the euro could plunge Britain into a recession that would cause lasting damage to the economy, the chair of the Office for Budget Responsibility, Robert Chote, has said.
It could be as bad as the recession caused by the credit crunch and there would be a possibility that “you go down and you never quite get back up to where you started”, he said.
It is just not worth it. Europe would be ripped apart for the sake of speculators.
Love this. Facebook and Greece debt crisis – both brought to you by Goldmann.
This guy Boriwit is a bit of a twat.
Feacesbook more like.
@Seafoid
Speculators can speculate because they have access to leverage.
The guys on top are giving them that leverage via the mechanism of “austerity”.
The introduction of treasuary paper can take that away very quickly.
The wealth (whats remains of it) itself will not disappear in a instant – where can it go ?
Its bleeding over time however.
The European experiment is showing its true colours now ….. things are beginning to bubble with the most self aware of people but the rest have become zombified by decades of neo -liberal brainwashing.
A lot of church bells and a mild confrontation with the police
Nothing like 1920s Germany me thinks
None of these people have memories of Flanders fields in their heads.
From Karl Dinninger Market Ticker
Trichet Declares War
This is an open declaration of war folks:
“Europe could strengthen its monetary union by giving European politicians the power to declare a sovereign state bankrupt and take over its fiscal policy, the former head of the European Central Bank said on Thursday in unveiling a bold proposal to salvage the euro.”
That’s an open declaration of war and should be responded to in kind.
There is no power superior to that of the budget within a nation. None.
If other nations and firms don’t like a government’s expression of their sovereign power in the form of their budget they have the right to refuse to lend to it. But there is no claim one can make on a sovereign’s budget on a forcible basis — that is functionally identical to an invasion
THAT IS FUNCTIONALLY IDENTICAL TO A INVASION.
Trichet has just invited a shooting war in Europe, and I predict that if this sort of meme spreads he’s going to get exactly that.”
I can dispute what Karl has said here.
Seizing a sovergin happens after you win a war.
Only the bankers gold can sort out the target 2 imbalances between European nations.
If they are unprepared to do so all wealth will flow to the $.
Given Goldmans ultimate dependence on the US treasury it looks very very very bad.
Europe is the new Saudi Arabia it seems – 14/15 MBD going to 5 MBD………..it should be fun.
re- Ceterisparibus:
– there were a few remarks this week along similar lines – one mentioned the need for action to prevent ‘civil war’.
A few bombs from some fictional subversive organisations might be all that is needed.
Looking at a Krugman article in the same paper: ”Failure of the euro would amount to a huge defeat for the broader European project, the attempt to bring peace, prosperity and democracy to a continent with a terrible history”
– There is certainly a lot of this stance weighing down and obfuscating matters, but I don’t credit PK’s interpretation – it’s peddling the old propogandist lie that the Grand European Design was created for altruistic purposes, to heal old wounds, etc. The problem is the failure to accept a condition of independent, co-operative sovereignties; war was the side-effect and not the cause of this.
The chicanery employed to achieve the same end as was sought by everyone from Charlemagne to Hitler was the euro; which created a de facto governance outside Government – a worse design than a dictatorship.
Though I don’t agree with the following commentator’s assertion that there is an underlying and irremediable animosity between european peoples, I think he’s far closer the mark than Krugman with this:
”Germany wants to be European more than it wants to be German, to gain admiration for the good it does to atone for the evil it once was”
– except that the problem isn’t primarily german (though I do think they must be feeling some kind of repressed hostility at this stage; after the war, they assumed a forced grin supposed to signal their new mindset, lobotomised of all aggressive instinct. But how can a country feel that had to divest itself of much of it’s identity because for a relatively brief period in recent history that identity was the vehicle for evil ? And the nazi ethos extended far beyond germany, and had many fellow travellers even in nations later it’s opponents).
Replace the commentator’s ‘Germany wants to be…’ with a more inclusive ‘Europe [Neurope] wants to be…’, and we get to the heart of the problem.
‘European’ – not advanced as a recognition of kinship, but a great Neuter identity, born of repressed but re-emergent impulses of continental conquest and control.
So for Krugman’s: ‘peace, prosperity and democracy’ that he & others imagines we have lost; for thirty years we had greater of the first and second than had before been known, and despite significant failures, of the third, too.
It seems to me that they are all three threatened now on account of movement to go beyond what is in fact natural – the bouyant interpenetration of non-hotile, co-operative nations and economies where all remain distince and independent entities.
There has certainly been efforts from some to make hay from the crises in the cause of federalism – Barrosso, Schauble, Trichet…- I won’t go so far as to say that the problems have been engineered to this end, but with a combination of the flaw in the euro design that forced a union that did not exist (and was unmandated), and then the political exertions of those seeking to string up the pieces in the general panic and climate of threats that has followed, it amounts to pretty much the same thing.
Regarding the title of this thread “Fetagate” springs to mind to sum up the shabby remarks and callous tone of Ireland’s Finance Minister in the last few days as he tried to give the impression he was ” down ” with the international investment community.
Eureka: you realize that its just a joke? And do you mean Faeces..?
@ Kevin Denny
Yes and yes.
Found it very very unfunny. Greece’s children are going without medicine, proud people reduced to begging, desperate men killing themselves and this guy jokes about it.
Makes him a twat
Sorry about the spelling mistake – wrote it on an iPhone.
…and it was a cr*p joke on my part too
re- grumpy
– & I’m assuming most of the audience weren’t idiots, even the ones that felt obliged to join in the snigger; what sort of impression will be made by a man who dismisses any thought of consequences from a Greek exit with that joke ?
Will they be wondering did he really think they were referring to Greek exports ? Does he not imagine any other causal effects other than Greek exports ? Are they wondering about the wisdom of spending thousands on these conferences when they end up becomming the occassion for such farcical remarks, from somebody who was presumed to be, even if but by dint of his poition, an authority ? etc. etc….
21 replies on “FetaBook IPO”
Trichet, too, has a modest proposal. New referendum needed?
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKBRE84H04320120518?irpc=932
“Monetary union requires fiscal union, which requires political union. As simple as that. Conversely, fiscal union without political union means bye-bye democracy.” — Dani Rodrik.
” give European politicians the power to declare a sovereign state bankrupt and take over its fiscal policy”
Sovereign states don’t go bankrupt.
The Euro conspiracy in open view , the bankers want to have full formal control over our Fiat without that messy politics stuff.
First of all Trichet is mixing up the private European “sovergin” bond market which was mainly a Post Napoleonic invention with a true sovergin state.
If we don’t issue our own currency we will become even more slavish then we are now.
These are the most evil of men.
What more can one say in the face of this darkness ?
I guess even some of the more innocent Euro babes are having some doubts now.
The words a Monstrous conspiracy comes to mind.
The Euro was designed to fail.
@Kevin
Trichet is the guy who got it entirely wrong and he has the audacity to utter this gibberish….
“WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Europe could strengthen its monetary union by giving European politicians the power to declare a sovereign state bankrupt and take over its fiscal policy, the former head of the European Central Bank said on Thursday in unveiling a bold proposal to salvage the euro.
The plan offered by Jean-Claude Trichet, who stepped down last November as ECB president, would address a fundamental weakness of the 13-year-old single currency, the survival of which is threatened by the Greek crisis.”
It’s a bit like DSK suing the maid in NY…..arrogance knows no bounds.
It’s little wonder the Eurozone is in the manure when people like Trichet are allowed spout such rubbish.
Imagine Zeus…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrh-ycDV5k8
From Der Spiegel …
“On Wednesday, the ECB confirmed that a number of Greek banks have now been cut off from its refinancing operations. They apparently lack sufficient capital to use as collateral. Now those institutions will have to be kept alive through emergency loans from the Greek central bank in Athens.
Not all experts regard cheap money from ECB as a good solution. Hans-Werner Sinn, head of Germany’s influential Ifo Institute for Economic Research, says that the ECB’s actions have intensified the capital flight from the crisis-hit countries. “The cheap loans have downright put private capital to flight,” he wrote in a recent opinion piece for financial daily Handelsblatt. “The purpose of the ECB measures was to build trust again and restore the inter-bank market. In that respect, they obviously weren’t particularly successful.”
With the Greek Central Bank now rated -junk at CCC, will the ECB keep authorizing them to issue euros to their insolvent banks in the absence of collateral of sufficient quality?
”Trichet, too, has a modest proposal. New referendum needed?”
Somebody here suggested yesterday that the man was behind scenes pulling a lot of strings.
He’s come out from behind the curtain now; a spate of interviews and now this.
The man behind the Guarantee, I really do not doubt.
But looking at this, now that things have got to this stage – what are our own and the national laws of the other countries concerned regarding conspiracy, treason, subversion of sovereignty, etc ? This has passed beyond even Maastricht & Lisbon, surely ?
re- kevin O’D. :’ “Monetary union requires fiscal union, which requires political union. As simple as that. Conversely, fiscal union without political union means bye-bye democracy.” — Dani Rodrik.’
The attempt to pretend it was democratic was jettissoned way back when the european constitution was rejected.
Merkel today has called for a referendum on euro membership to be carried out in tandem with the election.
Germany willing to let them go, the EU Manifest Destiny crowd adamant that no territorial surrender be contemplated ?
Greece leaving the euro could plunge Britain into a recession that would cause lasting damage to the economy, the chair of the Office for Budget Responsibility, Robert Chote, has said.
It could be as bad as the recession caused by the credit crunch and there would be a possibility that “you go down and you never quite get back up to where you started”, he said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/may/18/greek-euro-exit-uk-recession
It is just not worth it. Europe would be ripped apart for the sake of speculators.
Love this. Facebook and Greece debt crisis – both brought to you by Goldmann.
This guy Boriwit is a bit of a twat.
Feacesbook more like.
@Seafoid
Speculators can speculate because they have access to leverage.
The guys on top are giving them that leverage via the mechanism of “austerity”.
The introduction of treasuary paper can take that away very quickly.
The wealth (whats remains of it) itself will not disappear in a instant – where can it go ?
Its bleeding over time however.
Looks like Leftists are congregating in the New Rome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGEly4FeFH4
A Better video with what appears more free thinking types with some English explanation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZTguvcgmQk
The European experiment is showing its true colours now ….. things are beginning to bubble with the most self aware of people but the rest have become zombified by decades of neo -liberal brainwashing.
A lot of church bells and a mild confrontation with the police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQAAK1Avmlg
Nothing like 1920s Germany me thinks
None of these people have memories of Flanders fields in their heads.
From Karl Dinninger Market Ticker
Trichet Declares War
This is an open declaration of war folks:
“Europe could strengthen its monetary union by giving European politicians the power to declare a sovereign state bankrupt and take over its fiscal policy, the former head of the European Central Bank said on Thursday in unveiling a bold proposal to salvage the euro.”
That’s an open declaration of war and should be responded to in kind.
There is no power superior to that of the budget within a nation. None.
If other nations and firms don’t like a government’s expression of their sovereign power in the form of their budget they have the right to refuse to lend to it. But there is no claim one can make on a sovereign’s budget on a forcible basis — that is functionally identical to an invasion
THAT IS FUNCTIONALLY IDENTICAL TO A INVASION.
Trichet has just invited a shooting war in Europe, and I predict that if this sort of meme spreads he’s going to get exactly that.”
I can dispute what Karl has said here.
Seizing a sovergin happens after you win a war.
This is a attack on Fiat itself.
The threats are becoming deadly serious…
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/world/europe/a-war-of-words-between-greece-and-germany-over-euro-crisis.html?_r=1&hp
The last sentence says it all.
Only the bankers gold can sort out the target 2 imbalances between European nations.
If they are unprepared to do so all wealth will flow to the $.
Given Goldmans ultimate dependence on the US treasury it looks very very very bad.
Europe is the new Saudi Arabia it seems – 14/15 MBD going to 5 MBD………..it should be fun.
re- Ceterisparibus:
– there were a few remarks this week along similar lines – one mentioned the need for action to prevent ‘civil war’.
A few bombs from some fictional subversive organisations might be all that is needed.
Looking at a Krugman article in the same paper: ”Failure of the euro would amount to a huge defeat for the broader European project, the attempt to bring peace, prosperity and democracy to a continent with a terrible history”
– There is certainly a lot of this stance weighing down and obfuscating matters, but I don’t credit PK’s interpretation – it’s peddling the old propogandist lie that the Grand European Design was created for altruistic purposes, to heal old wounds, etc. The problem is the failure to accept a condition of independent, co-operative sovereignties; war was the side-effect and not the cause of this.
The chicanery employed to achieve the same end as was sought by everyone from Charlemagne to Hitler was the euro; which created a de facto governance outside Government – a worse design than a dictatorship.
Though I don’t agree with the following commentator’s assertion that there is an underlying and irremediable animosity between european peoples, I think he’s far closer the mark than Krugman with this:
”Germany wants to be European more than it wants to be German, to gain admiration for the good it does to atone for the evil it once was”
– except that the problem isn’t primarily german (though I do think they must be feeling some kind of repressed hostility at this stage; after the war, they assumed a forced grin supposed to signal their new mindset, lobotomised of all aggressive instinct. But how can a country feel that had to divest itself of much of it’s identity because for a relatively brief period in recent history that identity was the vehicle for evil ? And the nazi ethos extended far beyond germany, and had many fellow travellers even in nations later it’s opponents).
Replace the commentator’s ‘Germany wants to be…’ with a more inclusive ‘Europe [Neurope] wants to be…’, and we get to the heart of the problem.
‘European’ – not advanced as a recognition of kinship, but a great Neuter identity, born of repressed but re-emergent impulses of continental conquest and control.
So for Krugman’s: ‘peace, prosperity and democracy’ that he & others imagines we have lost; for thirty years we had greater of the first and second than had before been known, and despite significant failures, of the third, too.
It seems to me that they are all three threatened now on account of movement to go beyond what is in fact natural – the bouyant interpenetration of non-hotile, co-operative nations and economies where all remain distince and independent entities.
There has certainly been efforts from some to make hay from the crises in the cause of federalism – Barrosso, Schauble, Trichet…- I won’t go so far as to say that the problems have been engineered to this end, but with a combination of the flaw in the euro design that forced a union that did not exist (and was unmandated), and then the political exertions of those seeking to string up the pieces in the general panic and climate of threats that has followed, it amounts to pretty much the same thing.
Regarding the title of this thread “Fetagate” springs to mind to sum up the shabby remarks and callous tone of Ireland’s Finance Minister in the last few days as he tried to give the impression he was ” down ” with the international investment community.
Eureka: you realize that its just a joke? And do you mean Faeces..?
@ Kevin Denny
Yes and yes.
Found it very very unfunny. Greece’s children are going without medicine, proud people reduced to begging, desperate men killing themselves and this guy jokes about it.
Makes him a twat
Sorry about the spelling mistake – wrote it on an iPhone.
…and it was a cr*p joke on my part too
re- grumpy
– & I’m assuming most of the audience weren’t idiots, even the ones that felt obliged to join in the snigger; what sort of impression will be made by a man who dismisses any thought of consequences from a Greek exit with that joke ?
Will they be wondering did he really think they were referring to Greek exports ? Does he not imagine any other causal effects other than Greek exports ? Are they wondering about the wisdom of spending thousands on these conferences when they end up becomming the occassion for such farcical remarks, from somebody who was presumed to be, even if but by dint of his poition, an authority ? etc. etc….