FT Editorial: Let Ireland Succeed

This post was written by

here.

55 Responses to “FT Editorial: Let Ireland Succeed”

  1. John Corcoran Says:

    Below is the link to the video of the Late Late show in 1999, in which the Irish economist David McWilliams tells the Irish people that there is a massive property bubble in Ireland. What did the distinguished Irish government do?. They believed the auctioneers puff pieces in the Irish Times property supplement and told him and other economists of a similar view,to commit suicide:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRfMO6agqGQ

  2. Gavin Kostick Says:

    God rest ye merry Irish folk, let nothing ye dismay!
    The FT and the IMF say we must have our day!
    We had our knocks and taken shocks,
    But for banks we should not pay!
    Oh, tidings of a reasonable request,
    Reasonable request,
    O-Oh tidings of a reasonable request.

    God rest ye merry ECB why don’t we called it quits?
    To sort out Prom Notes after all is not beyond our wits!
    Inflation risks are over stressed
    And growth must have its day
    Oh, tidings of a reasonable request,
    Reasonable request,
    O-Oh tidings of a reasonable request.

    And to our merry bloggers all I wish you Christmas Peace,
    Except, perhaps, DOCM who would see our people fleeced,
    Let’s not forget poor Mr Hunt
    Who should surely be released,
    Oh, tidings of a reasonable request,
    Reasonable request,
    O-Oh tidings of a reasonable request.

  3. What Goes Up... Says:

    The FT obviously hasn’t done it’s homework.

    True, when Ireland’s financial system collapsed after 2008, politicians failed to foresee the consequences of their decision to support failing and bloated banks.

    And yet, Morgan Kelly, on the night of the guarantee could see for miles:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11CCxv2ueiQ

  4. PR Guy Says:

    We are where we are….

    Draw a line under that …..

    There is no alternative…

    Look forward not……

    Is it Christmas yet?

  5. seafóid Says:

    Put on the green jersey

    Will take off like a rocket

    etc

    In fairness to the FT they have been very solid on the dumping the bank bonds on the plain people . Mais il faut punir Irlande pour encourager L’Espagne et L’Italie.
    Because there is no such thing as an Irish economy. There is a sub economy of a much bigger dysfunction. The profits are globalised. The costs are localised.

  6. DOCM Says:

    @ seafóid

    As the French also say “il faut se mefier de la presse anglo-saxonne”.

    Simon Carswell on the five years since the night of the guarantee.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1219/1224327997049.html

  7. Seamus Coffey Says:

    @ What Goes Up,

    There was some discussion of “potential loss exposures” in this meeting.

  8. seafóid Says:

    “A comment by the then minister for finance, Brian Lenihan, made at that dramatic press conference on September 30th, 2008, unveiling the guarantee stands out. I asked him how the State could afford to cover a €400 billion guarantee when it was 10 times the national debt. “We have to have faith in ourselves as a nation and a people that we are capable of having a viable banking system,” he replied. “Faith” was an interesting choice”

    What a risible answer. Will we ever know what happened ?

  9. seafóid Says:

    @ SC

    Reading that page – it has the feel of the last Polish cabinet meeting before the Germans invaded. Ni bheadh a leitheid aris ann.

  10. bazza Says:

    @All

    What is it with the cynicism on this thread? As I said on the FT page to John Corcoran, what’s the point?

    So what if it is not 100% factually accurate (if it were to be 100% accurate it would need to be 100,000 words long to take into account the full circumstances of the bank bailout)? So what if Fianna Fail were incompetent and FG/Lab have been supine in their approach?

    This is a good editorial from the FT, where they have chosen to highlight the inequity and illogical nature of the current situation and sensibly call for some debt restructuring. The more international srutiny brought to bear on this issue, the better.

    If the FT wrote an editorial suggesting that Ireland should not get any debt relief what would be the reaction here?

  11. What Goes Up... Says:

    @Seamus Coffey

    The list of attendees are the perfect advertisement for Specsavers!

    http://www.gavinsblog.com/2009/02/22/anglo-revelations/

  12. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    A partial default of debts while remaining in the Euro will not work.

    Since starting this monetary journey in 1979 a increasing amount of our people have been unable to find work as we needed to be more “dynamic” to pay off the stock of debt.
    We must now import pointless call center jobs which have no productive function other then farming the global petro $ss which reside outside national borders in the financial stratosphere.
    This pointless activity helps to pay off the stock of debt but adds nothing to our society.
    Our people need local real jobs for real people that can service real domestic needs.
    This cannot be done within the Euro cage as it destroys all rational domestic activity both during credit inflations & money deflations.

    The Euro is a nation killer
    Because it was designed as such.

  13. seafóid Says:

    @ bazza

    The FT has been drawing attention to the Irish debt issue for some time. It has also been looking for some cop on from the creditor countries in the form of increased demand to offset the heavy loading of correction in the PIIGS but there doesn’t seem to be much happening in this area either.

  14. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    Ask yourself lads how are these people meant to pay off a stock a debt from the hard but brittle Euro which prefers to export fuel / capital to the 4 corners of the world so as to earn a wage arbitrage……..for useless financial eaters ? and perhaps members of the fourth estate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlvezv4quyg

    These people will never work in call centers…..
    Just as Gisele Bündchen will never slop out a Pigsty

  15. DOCM Says:

    @ bazza

    That is a legitimate point. But the question is why the FT is pushing this editorial line. One can only speculate. A sudden belief that the financial markets operate on the basis of fair-play? Unlikely!

    The second point is whether it is helpful to the Irish case to couch it in the concertinaed and incorrect manner in which the FT does. Almost certainly not!

    As to the attitude of the IMF, this is by now well-known and undoubtedly very helpful.

    The fundamental problem remains unchanged. Debt relief, at this stage, means that the taxpayers of the other EA countries have to go beyond the present stage of credit guarantees and soft loans which is helping the countries in difficulties and put up their own cash via their governments through the ESM. Germany is inisistent that whatever the country agrees, it cannot be an open-ended commitment i.e. there must be a certain identifiable limit to the country’s liability. This is now a constitutional requirement.

    The UK is not involved.

    This is not to belittle the case that can be made by Ireland, something which I have never done. It simply is an attempt to situate it in the real world. Urging one’s champion repeatedly into a brick wall on the basis of unjustified expectations – as many seem to do – is not a good way to go.

  16. John Corcoran Says:

    @bazza

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnL3x06UQqY

    John Corcoran Says:

    June 1st, 2012 at 5:05 pm
    Firstly I would like to thank BBC radio which allowed myself and Paul Krugman to simultaneously address the people of the UK and Nothern Ireland and advocate a No vote. Unfortunately if the joint broadcast had been a day earlier I feel it might have been a swing factor.

    We have thrown all our gambling chips away and betrayed our fellow european neighbours who are struggling with austerity. Raymond Crotty must have turned in his grave when the result was announced. We betrayed Raymond as well. In a country that elected the corrupt Charles Haughey and continues to vote Michael Lowry to top the poll it is of no great surprise. The most sophisticated electorate in the world–what a joke. The logic was simple if you vote No you get two votes –if you vote yes only one. Two is greater than one. Simple maths.

    The train has left the station for Ireland and we have our bank debt forever tied to our throats. The oligarchs and their fellow travellors who frightened our people into buying vastly overpriced houses etc used the exact same tactics to frighten the voters into voting for a disastrous deal for Ireland. The soft landing professors and the other useful idiots did the rest. A sad day for Ireland. We betrayed ourselves and our fellow europeans.

    The No people –fought the good fight–finished the course–kept the faith.

    Brian Woods II Says:

  17. Paul W Says:

    Bringing forward from the previous thread.

    “@ Dork

    I symphatise with your argument. However, your base argument is based on a properly functioning national economy. It is clear that Ireland’s economy is not functioning properly.

    “Capital must essentially destroy its capital base so as to get a return.”
    Ireland’s capital is simply being extracted to service debt. Period. I agree that that by definition implies a dysfunctional, deteriorating economy. The slippery slope of Debtors’ Prison. What people don’t seem to acknowledge (widely) is that Ireland’s recovery is not the Creditors’ primary concern. Ireland’s continuing (but declining) health is only of concern to the Creditors in the debt service context. All additional ‘productivity’ , or more accurately ‘cash extraction’ is merelt debt service related. Similarly, the benefits of any ‘improvement’ go to debt service. Hence, the recent €3.5bn budget extraction is largely and increasingly aimed at debt service.

    What’s the point therefore in ‘recovery’? Seems to be part of the underlying ‘rationale’ for non reform of the PS (or anything).

    In short, Ireland needs a ‘Big Solution’, to rebase the country to a sustainable level. Without that, there is only decline of economic health as the capital base of the country to extracted by its Creditors.

    Yet, the lie of ‘recovery’ persists.”

    Your argument to exit the euro is a difficult one on many fronts, particularly given the extent of reliane of our exports on the euro….It’s not just about currenycy, market access is also key (although leaving the euro does not automatically mean EU Exit).

  18. Frank Galton Says:

    The best way to restructure the prom note would be to make it a contingent security that becomes payable upon Fianna Fail’s return to government.

  19. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork

    “A partial default of debts while remaining in the Euro will not work.”
    It might, if the € debt level was sustainable. Hence, even Greece could stay in the euro if its debt did not take so much of its resources. However, to stay in the €, there would need to be a very substantial write-off of the odious debt element for Ireland.

    “Since starting this monetary journey in 1979 a increasing amount of our people have been unable to find work as we needed to be more “dynamic” to pay off the stock of debt.
    We must now import pointless call center jobs which have no productive function other then farming the global petro $ss which reside outside national borders in the financial stratosphere.”

    Call centres are part of a very large international economy in Ireland. They are perhaps on the least attractive end…Still, they give many jobs. That international economy is very large relative to the domestic economy. Perhaps therefore the vision of the future economy is not based on the current domestic model? As a ‘satelite’ in a bigger Europe, workers will flow to where there are ‘real’ jobs as you put it. In this ‘vision’, Ireland would then remain as a Carribean-type financial centre, which still retains an important gateway to the EU /€.

    You you are possibly right in saying “the Euro cage as it destroys all rational domestic activity both during credit inflations & money deflations.” Accepting your argument the question becomes – is the domestic economy worth saving?

  20. OMF Says:

    Really DOCM, no one outside of Lorenzo Bini-Smaghi has been less supportive of Ireland’s case, and I often wonder whether you might be on his staff!

    How dare you sir! The likes of DOCM are far more likely to been on the DoF payroll.

    Ireland will not be allowed to succeed. It must remain in the euro. And remaining in the euro means only eternal failure. It means the continual drain of money, wealth, and people from the periphery to the core, and abroad.

  21. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    @Paul W
    Is the domestic economy worth saving ?

    The domestic economy is not efficient – it can never be.
    However it is more redundant.

    The rise in the $ oil price since ( price of capital) has been the result of the euros accent in my opinion.
    It works by bypassing labour (much more so then sov countries which have at least the option however reluctantly of producing greenback like currency)

    Also Chinese coal consumption went vertical in 2002 (year of physical euro )

    But trade relationships are now beginning to break down.
    The externalties of trade without defined political borders is becoming all too real.

    The “international economy” produces nothing on a net basis – it farms the declining worlds capital base.

    When global supply lines begin to break down we will all starve as our workers will only be able to pick up a phone to soothe your nerves rather then fix real physical problems.

    Globalization is now extractive.
    The 2 billion euro protection money we give to the Pharmaceutical Industry is another case in point.

    Ryanair may sue the state for not selling their stake to a private rather then public monopoly.

    Its a corporate nightmare which will always seek to run down a capital base as that is the most efficient mechanism to extract the capital and express short term profits.

    The call centers capture this declining capital in a fleeting moment of time before it is lost to the thermodynamic ether.

  22. Joseph Ryan Says:

    @Paul W
    “Ireland’s capital is simply being extracted to service debt. Period. I agree that that by definition implies a dysfunctional, deteriorating economy. The slippery slope of Debtors’ Prison. What people don’t seem to acknowledge (widely) is that Ireland’s recovery is not the Creditors’ primary concern. Ireland’s continuing (but declining) health is only of concern to the Creditors in the debt service context. All additional ‘productivity’ , or more accurately ‘cash extraction’ is merelt debt service related. Similarly, the benefits of any ‘improvement’ go to debt service. Hence, the recent €3.5bn budget extraction is largely and increasingly aimed at debt service.”

    That’s about it.

    The debts were socialized by an incorporeal cabinet and a ill-informed and misled Dail; then the debts were nailed to the Irish body under threat from the ECB; then an extraction team put in to make sure the ‘money’ was extracted.
    Meantime, in Ireland as in Greece, free capital has flown the coop, to remain untouched. Our Swiss partners seem to be the location du jour.
    It is indeed a strange system. One could hardly label it capitalism or the free market.

  23. seafóid Says:

    @ Frank Galton

    A very worthy suggestion deserving of support

  24. John Maynard Keynes Says:

    @john corcoran

    considering house prices have returned to 2002 levels after the crash and are now stabilizing its quite clear that David McWillaims was calling a bubble in 1999 that never burst?

  25. Shay Begorrah Says:

    @John Maynard Keynes

    considering house prices have returned to 2002 levels after the crash and are now stabilizing its quite clear that David McWillaims was calling a bubble in 1999 that never burst?

    So if property prices only reach their previous values ten years later (and after ten years of inflation) in a country with a growing population there was not a property bubble at that point?

    This is ignoring the money spent on NAMA propping up the current property “market” or the cost of “non-performing” mortgages which the state has eventual liability for.

    Had McWilliams been listened to instead of sneered at by Ireland’s centre right establishment we might not have been forced to spend sixty five billion Euro on bailing out the financial sector.

  26. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork

    Again, given that, my unanswered question remains whether it is worthwhile saving the domestic economy if terminal decline is inevitable in any real i.e. not theoretical) scenario? What’s so great about an inefficient GNP economy where many, many people ultimately have no work and ‘starve’ as you put it? That definition seems somewhat based on an old insular Irish nationalistic viewpoint (of which we Corkonians and Irish generally grew up with). Was it that great in the 1980s?

    Just probling….like.

    If you can’t beat them, join them?

  27. Edward v2.0 Says:

    @ JM Keynes

    er… I think you’re forgetting about inflation. CPI is up 40%+ since 1999 according to the CSO (and the average wage has increased even more).

    As for house prices being back to 2002 levels, they were there in 2010 when the PTSB index was stopped (http://www.esri.ie/irish_economy/permanent_tsbesri_house_p/) and were at 2000 levels last year (http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023541.shtml) so are probably in or around 1999 levels today.

  28. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    Paul W points to a possible Phantastical Phantasmagorical outcome of the euro construct.

    People with money claims lets say based in Dublin will have little physical world relationship with the rest of the country.

    A dearest wish of the Pale inhabitants for sure but how sustainable is this Super efficient monetary system ?
    Their physical wealth will in reality be claims on German & Chinese production alone !!!!
    A quite extraordinary outcome.

    Dublin opinions musings on this detachment of money claims from the local economy is worth looking at.
    Although I disagree with him about the tax thingy
    Its got nothing to do with tax – its about the declining supply of local money.

    http://dublinopinion.com/2012/12/11/employment-in-northern-ireland-census-2011/

    http://dublinopinion.com/2012/12/17/dublin-in-1913-and-tax-avoidance/

  29. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork

    It is true that the population would centre in the main cities, mainly Dublin and Cork for instance. Financial ervices, IT, the virtual economy dominate (new economy, high skills with small local services’ population. The remainder of Ireland becomes a bit of a Disneyland, based on tourism, holiday homes and the like. No more trying to industrialise The West.

    In fact, not unlike Florida! Except without the sunny weather.

    Our newly emigrated return for holidays and have fond memories of the ’1980s’.

    We remain Irish, but one downside is that the youth of the country mainly leave (happening anyway)…Danger of becoming an old country in time, with loss of Irishness?…the way NI seems to be losing its Protestentism.

  30. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    Think about the Effin Eddie days of the early 90s….
    (It was still at the early stages of the credit hyperinflation)

    People went 5 to a car
    But people had enough for pints afterwards

    Today people travel to the match one to a car
    But no money is available for the crack

    Soon most people don’t travel

    End of society

    This guy talks about negative value money
    Greenbacks are much like this other then greenbacks is centralized money also.

    Its not scarce
    It does not have interest
    It is created by the people at the base (the government perhaps ?)

    Most important …………

    IT CREATES DIFFERENT BEHAVIOR PATTERNS

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdwYGI-9Tc

    Paul
    You seem to think the domestic economy has no value because it does not have tokens……
    Other societies with the tokens have value.

    But the real physical economy has been distorted by these false money claims.

    We are all guilty of this as the monetary system dictates our behavior at all levels.

  31. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    Think about the Effin Eddie days of the early 90s….
    (It was still at the early stages of the credit hyperinflation)

    People went 5 to a car
    But people had enough for pints afterwards

    Today people travel to the match one to a car
    But no money is available for the crack

    Soon most people don’t travel

    End of society

    This guy talks about negative value money
    Greenbacks are much like this other then greenbacks is centralized money also.

    Its not scarce
    It does not have interest
    It is created by the people at the base (the government perhaps ?)

    Most important …………

    IT CREATES DIFFERENT BEHAVIOR PATTERNS

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdwYGI-9Tc

    Paul
    You seem to think the domestic economy has no value because it does not have tokens……
    Other societies with the tokens have value.

    But the real physical economy has been distorted by these false money claims.

    We are all guilty of this as the monetary system dictates our behavior at all levels.

  32. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork

    Actually a bit more like Scotland with London being the ‘pale’….particularly if a bit of oil is discovered offshore. Great place to visit…….

  33. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork
    “You seem to think the domestic economy has no value because it does not have tokens……Other societies with the tokens have value.”
    No the Irish economy (on a sustainable debt basis) has tokens…just not enough to live the lifestyle of the Celtic Tiger era. Much to sort out in saying that.

    “But the real physical economy has been distorted by these false money claims.”
    The claims are claims. Don’t know where you get “false”. Agree that there is an ongoing distortion of the physical economy….but what’s worth saving remains?

  34. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    In 1914 it was HMT which produced the money ( not the bank)
    Although it was interest bearing to free up domestic calls on Gold…

    Those 10 shilling notes were legal tender throughout the British isles

    But the dead soldiers payed for the interest.

    Still there is no need to pay interest on the medium of exchange.

  35. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    @Paul
    When a economy cannot “grow” outward through bank credit production

    Think credit for houses and cars then the sov debt extracts the money units……
    Less tokens are available for commerce.
    commerce dies…………

    For example – The farmers have no tokens to pay workers to replace machines.

    The Euro is a reserve currency.
    It represents capital which is now declining ironically as a result of the euro bypassing labour.
    It does not represent domestic money tokens.

    The Euro is a gigantic entropy engine which must burn through real capital (oil) to survive.

  36. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork
    “Still there is no need to pay interest on the medium of exchange.”
    You will note that I still think that there is a need for a Big Solution e.g. debt restructure.

    Beyond that, it seems to me that Ireland is well on its way anyway to the place I outline above. It may not be Florida (I prefer Arizona), but people will still be able to afford to go on a sunshine holiday!

    I look forward to visiting with my children and grandchildren from the US.

  37. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork
    “It represents capital which is now declining ironically as a result of the euro bypassing labour. It does not represent domestic money tokens.”

    Ultimately, there will be a need for € transfers from the have (Germany et al) and the have-nots (PIIGS). Let’s bake that into the picture….

    So Ireland doesn’t have to change so much…It remains a [EU] Welfare Culture State.

    Seems to me that many in Ireland (if not the majority who e.g. voted for the Fiscal Compact) would be quite content with that. Far less hard than breaking away from the €, with the financial status quo for many having to fundamentally change.

    Self-determination doesn’t seem Ireland’s destiny under the €…that’s for sure.

  38. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork
    It kind of goes back to your Cha & Mia sketch. The Irish ‘pretenders’ will continue also to see themselves as ‘industrialists’ because they drive their ‘mercedes’.

    ‘Growth’ in this Disneyland, Welfare State – a bit like work experience for those on the Dole. Better than staying in bed.

  39. Brian Says:

    Are we far too western Europe oriented in our perspective. Listening to this BBC radio programme
    (Europe Moves East, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01p9l5f),
    which highlights the different view of eastern and baltic Europe states, which are are demanding more and quicker centralisation of powers in the EU and can’t wait to join the Euro, makes me think so.

  40. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork
    As I wait to do a call this afternoon with a large US institutional investor this afternoon, interested in Ireland right now (because investor value is beginning to emerge and the clean up process at root level is potentially beginning) it occurs that Ireland’s investor base, in the US and Europe, would prefer this status quo, ‘picture of stability’ also.

    Surprised that more haven’t taken up the sword in this debate!

  41. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    There is different types of growth

    You can get growth as in the UK through rail passenger numbers increases to now historic levels but no net energy growth.

    The Euro however must grow through increased energy expenditure – if not a country shuts down and the euro which represents capital rather then domestic money must move somewhere else so as to find a better return.

    It is simply too efficient – it must remain efficient even to the point of destroying productivity.

    Just look at the Italian job…

    http://omrpublic.iea.org/demand/it_dl_ov.pdf

    Germany gets the surplus (for the moment)

    http://omrpublic.iea.org/demand/ge_dl_ov.pdf

  42. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    Diesel moves elsewhere as local people run out of money tokens
    Before this public transport figures were declining in Italy.
    In a national economy public transport numbers would increase
    But the euro spits on labour which may supplement energy
    Its needs techno growth even if it kills the patient.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXa9tXcMhXQ

  43. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    So imagine the Euro Soviet has a political tectonic fault which builds up seismic forces as it reaches out to produce more and more stuff with less and less (mainly labour) inputs……..

    Eventually the system snaps and leaves its vassal states in a form of monetary & physical world breakdown
    With Greece the extreme example but Italy will follow as it realizes it can no longer give any more blood.

    What will really be a killer blow is the realization that all those euro sacrifices were for a nothing.
    Empty robotic values.
    Indeed they will have found it has systematically destroyed your internal supply chains & cohesive culture for a false idea.

  44. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork
    With respect, Ireland is miniscule in comparison to the UK. Our punt could not easily survive on a stanalone basis (even the Icelanders are thinking about joining it, despite all the imperfections).

    There are many forms of growth, yes. But as MH has indicated, the strong side of the economy, the international side, has plateaued…It is now mature. It may not grow much more, as he in details always illustrates. On the other side, there is a domestic economy which is in terminal decline as you say.

    Again, is the domestic economy worth saving? It’s a simple question.

  45. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    @Paul W

    There is a socialist government in Iceland – thats what they do.

    They join Soviets………

    What value do you put on the domestic physical economy ?
    Is it a monetary value ?
    And more importantly what monetary unit are you using to impute value ?

    What value is money when you can’t feed yourself because of physical world breakdown.

    The Euro must crush all real labour value – it has no human value.

    It will not stop…..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu0rP2VWLWw

  46. Paul W Says:

    @ Dork

    But there is also a socialist govt in Ireland (in the US, it would be regarded as being very Soviet-like in may respects)….So let’s not pretend that Ireland is so ‘unique’ economically-speaking.

    “What value do you put on the domestic physical economy ?” That is part of my question! Exactly…It seems though as if Official Ireland will sacrifice it and the domestic economy generally if we don’t get that Big Solution to the absolute sov debt level. I have not seen any feasible solution from anyone other than (1) leave the €, or (2) restructure the sov debt. (1) doesn’t look as if it will happen anytime soon in Ireland. remote. the lack of a solution to (2) is deleting the GNP economy anyway…needs resolution urgently.

    Yes, there is an imperefct monetary value in GNP terms…certainly helps give a picture of the size of what we are talking about.

    In my Disneyland, Welfare Culture State (with sustainable sov debt level), the euro remains the currency in which monetary value is measured.

  47. Gtfaway Says:

    Dork ratio now running at .25….. Do mods not have any role here? Does the tragedy of the commons as applied to comments not run here!

  48. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    @paul
    You are talking to a dorkish Greenbacker…………….

    I don’t believe in the fiscal debt concept.

    @Gtfaway
    Sure
    I will shut up now.

    But the world is absurd
    Listen to Mack the Knife on RTE now if you really want to absurdity…..

    A man who destroyed the Irish domestic economy for a idea

    Fiscal debt.

  49. Shay Begorrah Says:

    @Gtfaway

    You have to do extraordinarily impolite things, like pointing out someone is a serial liar, to get posts deleted here.

    No, seriously – blogging software on a site like this could do with some kind of threading and folding but this can often be quite ugly.

    As a halfway measure I favour everyone having two “free” posts until their tag is mentioned by another poster, if everyone ignores you you get to say two separate things which would make people craft their responses a little more carefully, if you provoke comment then you get to respond but again have to wait until you are mentioned again after your response. It would also discourage people from responding to trolls/schills.

    In cases where a bit of a discussion gets going on subject matter not closely related to the post this still is not a help obviously.

  50. Shay Begorrah Says:

    As a no doubt doomed attempt at self regulation would anyone be interested in adopting the following rules?

    * Stick to the original topic like glue until there are at least ten posts.

    * Everyone is initially restricted to two postings on each topic unless they are a moderator or have genuinely specialized knowledge related directly to the original subject of the thread.

    * Everyone only responds once to the entire set of any responses they have had since their last post.

    * Do not misrepresent your interests (make it clear if you are a anonymous lobbyist).

    Remember, brvtystslwt.

  51. Gavin Says:

    @ Shay

    You mean organize ourselves as opposed to accepting an imposed hierarchical structure? I think you’re in the wrong place. And country.

    My flabber was also ghasted earlier, so I reminded myself of this comment at 8.34:

    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/03/05/senior-irish-official-sees-wider-refinancing-of-bank-burden/

    I’m perfectly willing to have reasonable, non-shouty discussion about it.

  52. The Dork of Cork. Says:

    @Shay
    Its because I am not a member of the party Shay
    Is it not ?

    Greenbackers were cast out – remaining in the 19th century

    Forgotten by all……………..

    History is dead to them.

  53. Shay Begorrah Says:

    @Gavin

    My flabber was also ghasted earlier, so I reminded myself of this comment at 8.34:

    There is a touch of Gollum in there. They wants their monies, and we owes it to them.

    Alas my carefully crafted comment is gone, a bit like tears in the rain, and slightly less like sixty five billion euro of opportunity cost down the gaping maw of the blind but influential idiot god Mammon.

    @The Dork of CorK

    Its because I am not a member of the party Shay
    Is it not ?

    Not at all Comrade Dork, just trying to promote an on line environment in which dissimulation, disingenuousness and distraction is more difficult, not focused on you at all. Your bigger resource allocation/debt farming picture stuff is good, even if it might do with being expressed more accessibly (and why BTUs – get with the SI-ification!).

  54. Fungus the photo Says:

    No amount of opining by the FT or anyone else will change where we are now. Massive value has been taken from the system of assets and liabilities dealt with by “markets”. Conspirators consist of the media, politicians, most economists and those who direct the banking and investment systems. The victims are the fools who found out that a chain letter c an never cover everyone involved and those who put their assets into the hands of others. Those assets are now represented by shares in banks and insurance companies!

    The debts created are far too massive to be resolved, so the Irish will ‘pull a stroke’ to ‘make out like bandits’. Or not. The booty is so massive that it takes a long time to replace it, with paper promises from all quarters, each more worthless than the last. And over these years, as people are distracted by this and that, commissions and fat salaries are paid. NAMA and debt resolution! Ireland is merely the last to join the credit boom and now, inevitably, the bust.

    This time, it is different! Well, no, it is not. The most obvious feature of economics is that it does not deserve the prestige it attracts, unless of course, you fully understand what it is designed to do. That it does quite well! For those not in on the scam, it must be quite bewildering? Banking and a fortiori, shadow banking with money laundering, us a devastating weapon.

    What about the elephant in the room? The Jewel in the Crown? The IFSC……

  55. Fungus the photo Says:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/research-says-studying-economics-turns-you-into-a-liar/266423/

Leave a Reply